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#179871 - 08/20/05 09:15 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

It's a question that has been asked of nearly every other kind of MA, so now it's the turn of BJJ.
How effective is BJJ on the street?
I have my own views on this and will air them soon enough, but first, I would like to hear from others.

PS
Let's at least try to keep this polite.




Same answer as every other art. It's not the art that makes the student effective, the student makes the art effective. If the student is not comitted and doesn't train to defend themselves, no art (not BJJ, not anything) will help them defend themselves. BJJ has a good number of techniques which can be used in the street and can counter common "street" techniques. It also covers, in detail, a range of fighting which is only lightly touched on in other MA, thus making it quite exclusive in that area. It's got its pro's and con's like anything else.
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#179872 - 08/20/05 02:45 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Leo_E_49]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
See, I knew it could be done. A rational and level headed discussion on the street effectiveness of BJJ.
MattJ, oh ye of little faith.
My own view is this, that BJJ, JJJ, Judo and all the grappling arts are good, supplimentary arts to support a main art that would be standup. I'm even taking JJJ myself, as the weakest link in my own chain is grappling and groundwork. My one real concern is the power/strength issue.
I feel that in standup highly trained small, against untrained big is relatively even. On the ground I would imagine "highly trained" is not the equalizer that it is in standup. I have heard that in BJJ a lot of emphasis is placed on brute force or whatever works, which kind of defeats the object of the Ju of Jujutsu altogether.
Please correct me if this is wrong.
Good imput so far guys
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#179873 - 08/20/05 03:10 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by McSensei -

Quote:

I have heard that in BJJ a lot of emphasis is placed on brute force or whatever works, which kind of defeats the object of the Ju of Jujutsu altogether.




I'm sure you haven't heard that from anyone that practices BJJ. Technique is paramount, just like in standup. Think back to UFC1 - Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock. The much less muscular Royce was able to beat Ken - QUICKLY - through superior technique.

And Ken Shamrock, in addition to being much stronger, also had some wrestling experience.

It may seem that groundfighting is all about muscle, but don't mistake fighting for dominant postion (which can be hard) with actual submission technique.

BJJ can be very effective in the parameters it was intended for.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#179874 - 08/20/05 06:24 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I'm even taking JJJ myself, as the weakest link in my own chain is grappling and groundwork. My one real concern is the power/strength issue.




If you're taking Japenese jiu-jitsu, don't expect to learn to grapple well, unless you're doing a lot of live rolling. That's what often sets BRAZILIAN jiu-jitsu apart from it's Japanese cousin. If you're doing a lot of rolling, that's great. Its just not often present within the typical Japanese jiu-jitsu program. Your situation may be different.

Quote:


I feel that in standup highly trained small, against untrained big is relatively even.




Sometimes you don't HAVE to be skilled when you're big. Being BIG is it's own attribute. All a person needs to do is get one lucky shot in on you if they're much bigger. On the ground however, it isn't likely that someone will stumble into a "lucky submission". That requires training in the way that flicking an arm out and back doesn't always require.

Quote:


On the ground I would imagine "highly trained" is not the equalizer that it is in standup.




It's an INCREDIBLE equalizer. You cannot begin to imagine. In fact, the opposite is actually the case. It's my opinion that you don't need as MUCH experience with BJJ to beat a larger untrained person than you would with a striking art. You have to be MUCH better than your opponent with the latter.

In contrast, I once beat a guy who weighed 310 lbs with an armlock in about 30 seconds total. I weighed (at that time) about 185 lbs. I'd been "practicing" BJJ from video tapes with my friends at that time for about a month. I however, would NOT have wanted to "trade" with that guy AT ALL!

Quote:


I have heard that in BJJ a lot of emphasis is placed on brute force or whatever works, which kind of defeats the object of the Ju of Jujutsu altogether.




That's completely inaccurate and couldn't be further from the truth. You'd have to experience it from high level guys. Once you do, every question you may have regarding the art WILL be answered for you.

-John

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#179875 - 08/20/05 07:13 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
McSensei,

To further what John said about the strength/skill set...I have to agree with John here. I will quote an Aikido instrcutor that I trained with for a short time who said "BJJ was Aikido on the ground."

-B

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#179876 - 08/20/05 08:43 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Thankyou for the correction. As I have said I never had a firm viewpoint in the first place, but I'm grateful for the information.
Just to sidetrack my own thread a little,
Would judo be better for groundwork than JJJ? I keep looking at my sons Judo class and thinking, "I could do that," and they seem to spend a lot more time on the ground than my JJJ class. There is no BJJ class where I live that I'm aware of.
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#179877 - 08/20/05 08:48 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
McS,
I'm a edan in old school tkd. I had the opportunity to train with a BJJ group for thee month when we let then use our school after they lost their lease.After they left i continied grappling with some friends at my home.I have used dvd's and books for training. It wont be heading off to Abu Dabi anytime soon but I am becomeing more capabale on the ground. I'm sure you have the experience when demonstratiing a 1step or self defense and a big 19 year old Brown belt says what if? and then you two are off to the races. Over the last year it has happened 3 or 4 times with me. Each time I have easily locked / choked or submitted both brown and black belts when things went to the ground. It is safe to say that they were all larger and probably stronger than me. It's not rocket science or magic or a quick fix. It step by step just like anything else.Some of the other guys on the thread know me and my story.I'm a trad guy for the most part.It's always frustrating when someone starts slagging on your arts or has just discovered how effective groundwork can be and become a pain in everyone backside. On the other hand I was a Boy Scout "Be Prepared" is still good advice.

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#179878 - 08/20/05 09:12 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Thankyou for the correction. As I have said I never had a firm viewpoint in the first place, but I'm grateful for the information.




That's what we're here for. This is the place to ask questions. I still invite you to the BJJ/MMA forum for further Q&A sessions.


Quote:


Just to sidetrack my own thread a little,
Would judo be better for groundwork than JJJ? I keep looking at my sons Judo class and thinking, "I could do that," and they seem to spend a lot more time on the ground than my JJJ class.




If the JUDO group spends more time on the ground than your JJJ group, I'd HIGHLY advise you to do the judo. Consider that MOST judo groups don't spend NEARLY the time on the ground that the BJJ groups do. Also consider that the very rules within judo serve to keep people from becoming very functional on the ground.

Quote:


There is no BJJ class where I live that I'm aware of.




Buy some DVDs, grab some partners and TRAIN.

-John

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#179879 - 08/21/05 12:02 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

I have heard that in BJJ a lot of emphasis is placed on brute force or whatever works,




I can only imagine the level of experience of the person you heard this from.

At 39 years old and 175 lbs, with two bad knees, a bum shoulder and neck, I regularly train competitvely with my 250-265 lb students. When I tap them out, I always credit it to my superior size and stength and tell them to get off the mat and get back in the gym. Everyone gets a good laugh.


Edited by Fletch1 (08/21/05 12:04 AM)
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#179880 - 08/21/05 03:54 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
jkdchick Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Canada
Quote:

. On the ground I would imagine "highly trained" is not the equalizer that it is in standup.




I recently choked out a 250 pound police officer (we know each other, this was a friendly sparring match) SOLELY because I knew more than he did. He had me down on my back, couldn't think of anything to do but punch, I turned him over, took his back and RNC'd him. I weigh 164.

I had to rush out afterwards, but my instructor said he stood there for a full minute after I left with this "WTF just happened?" look on his face.

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