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#179790 - 10/14/05 07:31 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: ZoneD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Kiitos Toni!

Now could you teach me to read finnish because your website looks great....being an ignorant english guy I can barely read my native language, let alone a foreign one!

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179791 - 10/14/05 09:25 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Heippa!

Gavin, there is an English language selector (the Union Jack) for Toni's page. Finnish language, more complicated than NTKO. 18 cases and pronounce every letter!

Most important word, olut!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#179792 - 10/14/05 09:36 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: trevek]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Päivää Trevor!

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....olut!

Kiitos for the info....kinda obvious when you look a bit!

Kuulemiin,

Gav

PS. Please say I didn't just make any insulting comments about your mother!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179793 - 10/14/05 10:27 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
ZoneD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 10
It happened fast.... So this forum is now in finnish.. LOL. Olut=beer and in your post were nothing insulting.

But back to business. How long you folks have been in martial arts and kyusho?

I had the correct feeling about this forum. That is the joy..
_________________________
Yours in the Arts, Toni Kauhanen www.KYUSHOAIKIJUTSU.com

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#179794 - 10/14/05 10:37 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: ZoneD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
If I start speaking in finnish I'd probably make more sense!

I've been training for about 18 years. Don't really have any real formal Kyusho training to speak of, just a lot of willing training partners. My instructor attended a lot of the early PP seminars in the UK, we got the general idea of to approach striking the points, then just brought some books and a lot of charts and started whacking away. I've spent a lot my PP time trying to utilize them in combat, so haven't really paid that much attention to the TCM side. Although its something I'm starting to get into now, and have began studying Shiatsu.

Thats about it for me.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179795 - 10/14/05 11:14 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
ZoneD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 10
Gavin, Why are you looking for the study of TCM? What do you think the benefits of studying that are? For kyusho-purposes?

Back to topic - NTKO's
To make them work more than just occassionally or just for sensitive persons, one must understand what makes it work. Is here anyone who can perform such a technque on someone, in this case I do not care if its done to sensitive person etc.

Like I asked on previous post in the longer one - what is chi/qi/ki? I might have some answers, but what do you folks think?
_________________________
Yours in the Arts, Toni Kauhanen www.KYUSHOAIKIJUTSU.com

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#179796 - 10/14/05 11:46 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: ZoneD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Gavin, Why are you looking for the study of TCM? What do you think the benefits of studying that are? For kyusho-purposes?




Seems a strange question coming from a DKI guy. Shiatsu encompasses a huge amount of information of the inner workings of the entire body from both a Westerm and Eastern perspective. I feel that anything I learn about how the body is put together will allow me to better understand how to take it apart. Also I spent a hell of a lot of my life studying how to hurt people, learning to heal seems like a nice way to add a bit of balance to it....yin and yang and all that. From a Kyusho point of view, all the laws that explain how kyusho and tuite work come from TCM, the greater my understanding of kyusho and tuite will be.

The study of Shiatsu is already benefitting me in ways I never thought possible in both my Martial and persnonal lives, and I've only just started.

On NTKO's

I've heard it said that they work better when someone is angry or stressed. If this is true, then do you feel that they would work better in a real street confrontation due to the hightend stress response of actual combat?

Its my personal belief (in my very limited experience of energy projection) that many of the NTKO's can be more easily explained from a psychological point of view than a more energetic based one. This is all from a point of ignorance ofcourse. If we were to look at it fron an energetic point of view, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of what is causing the K.O from an energy point of view? I notice a lot of the NTKO involve the personal performing the KO to place their hand near the GB cluster on the top of the head and the other near GB20. I know the GB meridain is a favourite for PP K.O's, are you directly stimulating the GB points with the NTKO stuff?

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179797 - 10/14/05 04:00 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Quote:


Its my personal belief (in my very limited experience of energy projection) that many of the NTKO's can be more easily explained from a psychological point of view than a more energetic based one. This is all from a point of ignorance ofcourse. If we were to look at it fron an energetic point of view, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of what is causing the K.O from an energy point of view? I notice a lot of the NTKO involve the personal performing the KO to place their hand near the GB cluster on the top of the head and the other near GB20. I know the GB meridain is a favourite for PP K.O's, are you directly stimulating the GB points with the NTKO stuff?

Gav




You and Butterfly seem to have the opinions that we should look at this from a scientific, psychological point of view....I would like to join! (the Three Musketeers, huzzah!)

Before anyone posts anything else, y'all should look up as much info on hypnosis and the placebo effect as humanly possible (and make sure the sources are genuine).

Basically, as far as I know, Hypnosis is still widely debated, but most psychologists tend to agree that the people who are successfully hypnotized WANTED to be hypnotized. The people who came into the experiment thinking it was all Bull weren't hypnotized.

And the placebo effect is a GREAT explanation of no touch knock-outs. So spend some time doing this before saying things like, "I SAW it, it's REAL!" or "I WAS knocked out" or "there's no PROOF for any of it".

To add discussion to the last: there's no proof of the existence of a god or gods. But hence the reason it's called "faith"...

Happy researching and debating!
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#179798 - 10/14/05 06:51 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
This is a post taken from MAP. Should give some food for thought:

Quote:

Exposing Martial Art / Self Defence Trickery And Slight Of Hand

I had an Internet link to a video that showed a “NO TOUCH KNOCK OUT” but due to the owner of that video threatening to take legal action against me, I have had to remove it. Even without the link, I know you will find the below posting very very interesting !!!!!!!!! I know this post might be offensive to some in this forum, but knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power !!!!!!!


Darren







Let’s expose this guy for what he is …….. a charlatan and an entertainer. What he is doing is nothing more that a techniques that is called “Waking Hypnosis” or “Hypersuggestability”. Since I have a background in this topic, I am a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist and working towards my masters in NLP, lets break down what we have just seen in this video.


There are a number of ways to place a “WILLING and COOPERATIVE” person into a state of hypnosis, one of which is “waking hypnosis”. The best way to explain waking hypnosis is when a person in authority, such as a Doctor, tells you that you have only got two weeks to live, and then bang, you die in two weeks. You the client believe without question that the doctor must be right because he is the expert, so his “suggestion” you are going to die in two weeks must be correct and thus the conscious and more importantly the subconscious accept this “suggestion” 100%. Remember that the mind guides the body !!!!!!

In this video, the person in authority is the Instructor, who is demonstrating this “magical” technique to participants who want to be there and learn ( read WILLING and COOPERATIVE). In fact, you can hear the group calling him Sir, this now “anchors” to everyone, that he is a “person in authority” which is needed to make “Waking Hypnosis” work.

Next, lets look at how he “plants” the “suggestion” you will be knocked out, into the participants subconscious. First, the instructor obviously asked for volunteers. If a person volunteers, it tells the person in authority (hypnotist) that the person is definitely “Willing and Cooperative” and therefore more susceptible to suggestion. Although we did not see it in the video, I am also sure that this instructor conducted some very easy “suggestibility tests”, without letting the participants knowing of course, prior to his demonstration to ensure that he picked the right volunteers to demonstrate on. Heaven forbid he pick someone who would not respond to his suggestion, to do so would result in loss of face and more importantly loss of MONEY to him !!!!!!!!!


Next, The instructor prior to actually performing this “amazing” knock out technique, further “anchors” his suggestion to each participant, by slowly demonstrating what he was going to do to each student. He does this using a technique known as a “Hypnotic Equation”. A hypnotic equation is basically where the instructor is replacing one action with another. In this case, on the first three students, he suggests that when pain or pressure is felt by me striking you, you will go unconscious. This is a classic “Hypnotic Equation” He further anchors this suggestion by showing ( through demonstration first) what each student will do when he performs/applies his “magical” and “awesome” technique……… again give me a break !!!!!!!!


So now, lets look at the actual applications/techniques used by this Instructor. Prior to the actual demonstration, you will not that the instructor uses some humor ( says “ it’s over, did you see that”) to get the group, including his victims, to laugh. Why, because FEAR is one of the factors that can prevent an “induction” from taking place. This is a distraction technique that is used to calm people prior to an “induction”, in this case the technique of “Waking Hypnosis”. A calmer participant = higher suggestibility which = they will do what I need them to do.

Victim#1: Instructor first uses a technique known in hypnosis as a “misdirection”. A misdirection is used to increase a clients receptiveness a suggestibility due to the fact that the conscious brain is reaction as it should thus opening up the subconscious brain to suggestion. The misdirection technique is where the instructor first kicks the inside of the student’s right leg to get a pre-designated response that would happen. Because this worked, the students subconscious mind is now “wide open” to the instructors suggestion which he anchored earlier. The instructor now touches the student’s left side of the head (previously anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the student, “magically” and in “awe” of the group is knocked out and falls to the ground. What one should note, is that when in a state of hypnosis, a participant is still fully in control of his body. If you look closely, you will see victim #1 put his hand out to protect himself as he falls to the ground. If you compare this to an actual knockout, as you see in boxing, the body will fall to the ground like a marionette puppet whose strings have been cut. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE . Further, after apparently being knocked out and falling to the ground, you will hear the instructor state “back up” (suggestion) to victim #1, touches his head (anchor), at which time the student himself without any real help goes into a seated crossed leg position with his head up, just as the instructor “suggested” he do.


Victim#2: again instructor uses “misdirection techniques” by touching/blocking both arms. He then lifts both hands directly above and to the front of the victims forehead. This technique is known as an “Eye Fascination”. If I can get a person to do an eye/lid lift, it places one’s brain activity into a state of “alpha”. When the brain is in a state of alpha, a person becomes more suggestible. Instructor then strikes the victim in the chest with both hands ( anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the victim falls to the ground unconscious. Again notice that as this victim falls, he puts his hands out to protect himself from the fall. Also how once again the instructor goes over to this victim once grounded, again touches him (anchor) and then says “head up” at which time the victim immediately does as he is told.


Victim#3: again instructor uses “misdirection technique” and then uses and “anchored hypnotic equation, by striking the subject to both side of his neck. Again watch how this victim falls, and also note how the instructor again touches the subject after this knock out.



Victim #4: This is a very interesting one to watch, and more importantly to break down. Again the instructor uses a misdirection technique ( has the student grab him with two hands) but this time the instructor does not use a physical touch of any kind, but places his hands above the victims forehead about 3-4 inches away (eye fascination technique) and through some kind of “magical force” causes the person to go unconscious. What happened here was that the instructor used a technique known as “compounding” to anchor his earlier hypnotic equation that the person would be knocked out. The victim in this case, watched three separate students be knocked out by the instructor. Because of this fact, each time the student saw the instructor knocking someone out, his subconscious mind was being compounded with the “visual fact” that he would be knocked out too, no matter what this instructor did. As well you will note how the instructor causes the person to move his upper body and head backwards. To the unconscious brain, it equates this motion to falling backwards, and with the previously anchored suggestion, and the fact that the student had seen three other of his colleagues go unconscious, the instructors suggestions were “compounded” thus the knockdown. This is the same technique that a lot of “Pentecostal Ministers” use when they touch a person’s head and yell “your healed” at which time that specific member of his flock falls backwards in what others see as an unconscious state.



What I did not share with you, is that I am a Bruce Siddle PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) Instructor. For the past ten years, I have been teaching PPCT techniques to police officers in my department. I have also deployed these same techniques in “real world” scenarios. In fact, I can remember knocking a guy out with a full force fluid shock Brachial Plexus Strike. So can a person be knocked out with PPCT techniques? , given the proper context and opportunity, absolutely!!!! But when people get knocked out with a PPCT technique, they do fall like a marionette puppet who’s strings have been cut, not like the guys in the video who were able to control their fall. How these students fell, were identical to those who are placed into a hypnotic state. I have seen, experienced, and applied both, so can comment on this observation. The fact remains, watch the video frame by frame, and watch how these participants are falling, the proof is right there before your eyes !!!!!


This video proves nothing more than the fact that the instructor is very skilled in the area of hypnosis and suggestibility, period, full stop !!!!!!! Teaching this to students in a self-defense context is both misleading and negligent, period, full stop. It is because of these charlatans who promote this garbage to uneducated people for nothing more than the old mighty buck, that people are getting seriously hurt or even killed when attempting to use this s**t in the real world.

What you saw in this video, I can replicate time and time again. The ONLY reason this instructor was able to make things work for him was because he had WILLING and COOPERATIVE subjects to work with. On the street I’m pretty sure that your attacker will not be so WILLING and COOPERATIVE, Period, full stop.


This instructor is both an entertainer and a CHARLATON who is not teaching self defence (as he had advertised), but rather “self defeat”. Remember, there is the art form of Martial Arts, and the reality of street combatives/self protection. It is my opinion, that this video shows the “art form” and nothing more. To even attempt this stuff in the real world would likely get one seriously injured, or even killed



I know that this is a heated topic amongst those who believe in this stuff, and skeptics like me who see something else other than what is presented before their eyes. This is why magicians are so good at what it is they do. Until recently, the art of magic was a closed shop, no one else could see what the actual trick was. It was not until a few years ago, when the FOX TV network started airing “magic revealed” (presented by a masked professional magician), that those of us not in the know began to understand the parlor tricks behind the magic. Professional magicians went nuts. Why?, because their tricks were revealed. I am starting to see a direct correlation between the mystical part of the martial arts, and the reality of empirical and scientific research !!!!!



Remember, Knowledge and the understanding and application of that Knowledge is POWER. It is with such knowledge that we can effectively educate others about these entertainers and what they are actual doing !!!!


Strength and Honor


Darren Laur


_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179799 - 10/17/05 02:21 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
ZoneD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 10
Gavin,

"Seems a strange question coming from a DKI guy"

Why? GD has said previously you do not need to buy, read and/or study acupunture books.

Also I'm not DKI guy anymore.. allthough I was.

Now I need to go - its little busy time.
_________________________
Yours in the Arts, Toni Kauhanen www.KYUSHOAIKIJUTSU.com

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