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#179760 - 08/23/05 06:03 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Its difficult to stay out of this one, but im of the opinion that the organisation is little to do with true martial arts practise, certainly if it is presenting the NTKO and such like to an 'open' market.

There is alot I dont understand about physical martial arts, let alone 'ki' based excersise and application, I remain open minded as my studies open new doors, with a begining in shiatsu massage which im sure is going to teach me things I never would have thought, are possible.

However the fact is that this stuff sells, big time. People are happy to pay top $ to look at this stuff and not challange it, Mr Dillman is clever enough to capitalise on this fact, and does so in a very 'business' like way.

Is it for me, no way. Im happy training with my instructors who deal in reality and do not 'hype' or 'market', in fact destroy true karate.

NTKO may work in set circumstances on certain people, at certain times - do I really care - only when its presentation distorts the worlds view on proper martial arts, yep then I care. Will I get over it.............


yep im over it
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#179761 - 08/24/05 10:06 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: shoshinkan]
MMAA Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawrenceburg, Indiana
Hi guys my Name is Joe Morris, just so you all know I am with DKI but I am not a direct student of Mr. Dillman. I was not there at the taping but I have been to many of his seminars and camps. I think Gavin wanted to here more about our training, I can only speak from my school and my instructors. We train for the streets and to be quite honest with you very rarely do we KO someone in class, we work off of someone coming at you with intent, and only do stationary stuff when we are demonstrating. Since I have been with DKI I have only worked on the NTKO once at my instructors school, and only once at my own. This is not a big part of my training, nor my instructors do I believe it yes I do, do I practice it rarely. Like I said before I am and always will be with DKI to much knowledge not to be, and I agree that this video does not show us in good light, but NG will make this look however is best for them to make money.
_________________________
Joe Morris www.jodoryujujitsu.com

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#179762 - 08/24/05 10:42 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MMAA]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Joe, thanks for posting! I've got to say the way you introduced yourself was like you were attending an AA meeting, "Hi my name is Joe Morris, and I'm DKI!"

I was pretty much sure that was the case, that the NTKO's and even the PP K.O's were part for demo's only. The trouble is that that this is all most of the world actually see of the DKI. As I mentioned in a previous response I've been involved in one of these demo's done but none other than Leon Jay, and felt nada! I will state again for the record that topics covered by Dillman were superb, Bunkai, stances and anatomy, all covered brilliantly. That's what the DKI should be famous for, not NTKO's.

With regards to NG doing this to make Dillman look bad and trying to make money, I honestly can't see how Dillman didn't see that coming. He is not a stupid man, and a superb martketeer. Why on earth did he even agree to put something in front of the camera's that might fail and turn him into a laughing stock? Especially after the James Cameron embrassment. Equally why do the NTKO's, both sound and chi, feature so heavily on the websites of DKI worldwide, when those within the DKI readily admit that it is a pretty unrealiable technique? The only reason I can put forward is money and publicity. In which case, this puts them on the same side as NG. Maybe its a case of any publicity is a good publicity, I'll put money that after that show you get hundreds just coming to see what it is all about!

As an outsider, and one who was looking at becoming an insider, it just screams McDojo. People who are more concerned with making money by promoting seemingly magical abilities which fail outside of the Dojo.

As you probably gathered from previous posts I am pro-DSI, they have the knowledge and have their feet firmly on the ground. I'm even swayed towards the K.I lot over the DKI now in light of the recent publicity. Evan has posted some very realistic opinions on NTKO's on www.kyusho.com, after reading his comments I now have alot more respect for his organisation.

I know that this could all get very political, but the way I see it, as an outsider, the DKI seems worried that it is loosing ground to the other top organisations. Their response, promotion of the stuff mentioned above.

Once again Joe, thanks for taking part in this debate....oh, and welcome to fightingarts!


Edited by Gavin (08/24/05 10:47 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179763 - 08/24/05 10:55 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Gavin,
I was really expecting your answer about this topic, and so I want to answer to you step by step.

"As you so rightly said, NTKO's are bullshit in a real life fight, but if this is the case why go on world wide TV and promote it as a fighting technique? Whether Dillman said it or not, this is how it is precieved to the outside world. If doesn't work in real life, its not a fighting technique. If its not a fighting technique, its not Martial Arts in my opinion."

Sure, Dillman is exeeding with the NTKO, and sure, DKI is becoming a supermarket with Dillman as president. But DKI is, for that I KNOW, one of the few ( I want to repeat for that I know) organizations that offer high level MA now (if you have money). I have done wadoryu karate in my country for 8 years, and I can say that I can put my wadoryu third degree black belt on the basket. My old master, he don't know this, was a cherlatan. He don't know no one good explanation for kata, don't know any pressure point, or if he know 2 or 3 points don't know the angle and the method of activation, the movement that he perfomed were totally incorrect, he don't know anything about TCM, he don't know anything about boxing tecniques, he don't know ANYTHING!!! I think that those persons are cherlatans, and I was stupid to follow HIM.
But I am with you when you say that there are many wrong things in DKI... many mean more than one or two.
I agree with you when you say that if a techinque isn't applyable to fight isn't MA. But, in my opinion, there are few things not appliable. I think that NTKO can be applied to MA. When you strike (with contact) you can project your energy as in the NTKO obtaining really good results. But when you're training you have to imagine to project your energy out of your body, as in the NTKO.

"Recently, virtually all of the publicity about the DKI has been around the NTKO"

I think that this will be a cancer for DKI, in my dojo I will not publicy MA so focusing on NTKO and probably I will show NTKO only to advanced trainers.

"I especially want the NTKO stuff kept out of Martial Arts until it is fully understood and can be be used consistently."

I think that NTKO do smiling, to an expert, but a to a beginner open his mind. I was been really happy if I will see a NTKO or a PPKO when I was doing WADORYU karate, So i will sent my master to hell without lose time for 8 years.

"I want to see the DKI going back to what it does best, Kata Bunkai and PP research. I especially want to see it start developing effective combat ready PP attacks, that would work under the effects of adrenaline and against agressive violent opponents."

This is a work that we are doing.
I think that Dillman take a board and on it put:
-PP
-Kata bunkai
-TCM
-PPKO
-NTKO
-Energy projection
-Ryukyu Kempo
-Small Circle Jujitsu
-Kiai Jitsu
-Weapons
-Real fight
And after say:- This is the level of the MA that we done, these things we teach!-

"Until that time I don't think the DKI will earn any respect whatsoever, which is truely a shame."

I know that DKI is losing a lot of person but believe to me this magic aspects are only appearances ( a really bad appearances). when you're examined in DKI and also directly by George he don't want to see NTKO or energy projection but skillness, knowledge and REALTY, REALTY and REALTY.

"PS. I hope this wasn't offensive to you, I'm just trying to be honest."

Don't say strangeries, I am really, really, really happy to find a person like you

" I would really like to talk TCM and stuff with you privately"

I hope for a long time

"but I think the issues I have with this stuff is the same as the rest of the guys on this forum."
I know and I understand you and the other guys, I know that there are also some bad things in DKI (generally I agree for 70% with you), but there are also a general misreding about DKI.
This sharing is becoming really useful and also is becoming a good conversation I hope to continue our sharing also privately and about other topics
Bye

--------------------
Daniele Nosella

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#179764 - 08/24/05 11:08 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
MMAA Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawrenceburg, Indiana
I understand what you are saying about NTKOs, but let me touch on the sound NTKO of sound is not something that I would use but I would use the sound theory in fighting. It does add to your hit. You are right Mr. Dillman is not a dumb man, but NG presented this to him in a different way than they showed it (from my understanding) I do not know everything that was discussed, but I do know that they told him that they was going to present this differently. I would invite anyone one down to my school just to show that we are not a McDojo, but what we do is very street realistic. THis is not meant to be a challenge only a way for people to see what we do.
Thanks
Joe Morris
_________________________
Joe Morris www.jodoryujujitsu.com

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#179765 - 08/24/05 11:37 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Daniele,

I really beginning to like to you mate! And this topic is going alot further than I thought it would.

The reasons you stated for switching over to the DKI from Wado Ryu, are the precise reasons why I think Dillman deserves respect. In terms of organisations there is also Kyusho International (DSI) and The Dragon Society who are currently very en vouge at the moment. I've been going on about the DSI for quite about now so I'll take a quick moment to clarify why I like them so much.

I've read everything I could get my hands on regarding the PP's, and was left with huge holes in my information. I can cover pretty comprehensively all of the material covered in Dillmans books, and also the bits and pieces on the videos that I have seen of his. The trouble I found was that it was all surface information, I didn't know the science going on behind it. I went on the Dillman seminar, again given bits and pieces. This was so annoying, I can't tell you. I was stuck waiting for the latest tit bits to be thrown down from the DKI (the nearest DKI school is quite a distance from me). I knew where alot of the points were, how to hit them, and even how to stick them into far more practical situations than demonstrated to me, but I had no idea how to put them together. Then I was recomended to take a look a the DSI's site and grab some of their books.

I ordered my first one, "The Western Bubushi" by Rand Cardwell. When it arrived it was like Christmas come early, it blew me away. I imeadiately ordered "Advanced Martial Science" by Mike Patrick, and am still on the first chapter. It was like someone taking away my primary school books and handing me a University Text Book. They explain EVERYTHING! Some of the stuff covered in just these two books isn't covered until the 3rd year of my up and coming Shiatsu course.

Quote:

When you strike (with contact) you can project your energy as in the NTKO obtaining really good results. But when you're training you have to imagine to project your energy out of your body, as in the NTKO.




I'll agree that intention contributes a huge part to generating power. When I've been working I've actually had people fall over backwards when I've tried to grab them. I think this has a lot to do with the way the body interprets danger. I do fully believe that we can project our intention, most of us have experienced this sparring against a tough sparring partner. This is why I don't completly rule out the "possibility" of NTKO's, I still think there is a much more logical explanation than Chi. But thats a whole different conversation.

Anyhows, I think everyone is basically in agreement that the DKI is slowly killing itself pubilicly. Hopefully with the light of recent publicity, they might change tact. Fingers crossed.

Many thanks for the reply Daniele!

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179766 - 08/24/05 11:40 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MMAA]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Bring it on homeboy! You wanna a fight!
Quote:

THis is not meant to be a challenge only a way for people to see what we do.


Oh, erm, sorry!

Where to you teach mate?

Is the sound stuff just a Kiai?

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179767 - 08/24/05 11:50 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
MMAA Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawrenceburg, Indiana
Quote:

Bring it on homeboy! You wanna a fight!
Quote:

THis is not meant to be a challenge only a way for people to see what we do.


Oh, erm, sorry!

Where to you teach mate?

Is the sound stuff just a Kiai?

Gav


I teach in Lawrenceburg, IN USA (but I will be in England sometime next year)
On the sound no it is not just a Kiai, here is an experiment hit a traing partner through a pad as hard as you can (hell even Kiai), after you have done this hit him as hard as you can again but this time yell ho and project it at him see if he can tell the difference but don't tell him what you are doing before you do it
_________________________
Joe Morris www.jodoryujujitsu.com

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#179768 - 08/24/05 11:57 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MMAA]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I'm not hitting the pads till the weekend, I'll give it a go then! Thanks.

When you over in UK, if you're teaching could I pop along? Mind you after everything I've said about DKI, I understand if its a no!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179769 - 08/24/05 12:01 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
MMAA Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawrenceburg, Indiana
Quote:

I'm not hitting the pads till the weekend, I'll give it a go then! Thanks.

When you over in UK, if you're teaching could I pop along? Mind you after everything I've said about DKI, I understand if its a no!


Oh I won't be teaching, I will be over there to visit my sister in law, she is about an hour outside of london. But what I was getting at if you are in that area I would be more than willing to come down to your area and show some stuff and if you wanted learn some stuff from you (this is all assuming my wife will allow me)
_________________________
Joe Morris www.jodoryujujitsu.com

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