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#179750 - 08/22/05 06:12 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: JKogas]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
I saw the show and it shows one thing very nteresting and that is how powerfull a force suggestion can be. Remember the old Chinese story about the General who had an army who were sure they would lose a battle so he went to the temple of the thunder god with a test, he flipped a coin three times if all three flips were heads they would win if any one of the three were tails they would be defeated he flipped three times three times in a row heads came up and his soldiers went out and won the battle, they didn't learn till later that it was a two headed coin. The lesson is you can affect yourself and others can affect themselves, but suggestion can have a powerfull impact on people who want to believe. Why is it Mike Tyson never lost till Buster Douglass then when people stopped seeing him as invincible he was beaten several times. Why do the yankees win? the pinstripes. The last bit I leave with is that no chinese or japanese text in history claimed that there could be any manifestation of chi without a physical act, or if you want to knock someone out you have to hit them, based on their attitude it may be easier or harder to do so, but you still have to hit them.

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#179751 - 08/22/05 08:15 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'll allow this discussion to continue on and welcome the debate provided it stays just that, a debate.

I can tell from experience this is going to go nowhere. As we have already seen in the video when the technique fails the excuses come out. I have heard several "reasons" why a no touch KO didn't work on an individual.

1. The attacker didn't have the true intent of harming the defender.

2. His tongue was touching the roof of his mouth neutralizing the effects of the NTKO.

3. His big toe was up.

4. This person isn't affected by such techniques.

5. The location or time of day was wrong.

6. The person to be knocked out doesn't believe in the technique.

There are a few others but these are the most recurring. What has happened is this "debate" has already been set up for failure. There is an excuse for every instance. These NTKOs will only be effective on students and associates for variety of reasons. Mainly because they want to believe and no amount of discussion will change that, just as those who do not believe in this sort of technique will not be swayed by demonstrations on students or associates of the individual. This is something that has been discussed numerous times with no result. What it turns out to be is three groups in a heated discussion. These groups are believers, nonbelievers and those in between. Those who have experienced what they believe to be a NTKO will not believe what they felt was anything but authentic regardless of the evidence presented to them. I firmly believe that many who believe in this sort of thing tend to grow out of it but take one of two paths. On one hand they realize they were the victims of a fraud and move on to other endeavors. On the other hand they see the benefit in perpetuating the fraud and continue to "teach" the technique even though they truly know it isn't real. I'm sure there are those who through lack of exposure to other arts or outside observations truly believe they are doing NTKOs and buy into the excuses they were fed in their early days of training.

The reality is the NTKO doesn't work. When asked to prove it does you get one of two responses. Either they do try and fail offering these feeble excuses as the reason or they refuse on the premise that a "true master" is too humble to need to prove himself to anyone. There is also the claim that many of these so called "masters" donít' want people to believe in this technique as it will take away their advantage. This is complete nonsense.

This thread will go on for now but the moment i see it degenerate into the same redundant BS as in many other threads it will be locked. So keep it civil.
_________________________
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#179752 - 08/22/05 10:41 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: laf7773]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
There is another level on which this simply doesn't make sense.

Let's sat that NTKO's really do work ( Ridiculous, but let's pretend).

It has also been stated by members of Dillmans group that if you don't believe they will work, then they won't.

Seems to me, that the application of the NTKO is absolutely pointless to study from a MA perspective as the counter is the simplest technique in the world to master... Simply don't believe it!

Even untrained thugs can do that.

Why then would a rational man even pursue such a technique

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#179753 - 08/23/05 01:54 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: BuDoc]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chris,

"Rational?" Rational is not what the NTKO is about. What is being described here is generally the antithesis of the formal martial artist. Formal doesn't mean traditional or MMA, but just the study of things that logically build up to the betterment of performance for the practioner.

What Dillman and others seem to possess is a charismatic pull towards the darkest and most mysterious of MA's intangibles...and that is the secret technique that passes almost as magic. That once learned is a force to not be toyed with because of its deadly implications. This is the religous zealot at his worst, this is the conman, this the guru controlling his group, this is drinking the Koolaide and thinking it is good.

The implication is that there is a shortcut in training and that something can be got for nothing. Training, whether traditional or modern really is less about the mysterious but making what seems mysterious known. It is practice, it is deconstructing movement and technique to component parts for evaluation, it is training modalities that increase speed, impact, timing, and more importantly, understanding of why you do the things you do in the endeavor to get better at your art.

How much alike in belief are the wondering souls of the engineers in San Diego awaiting the mothership, and those in Jonestown? Not all these folk are stupid, unconsidering folk. Yet, they fall into the trap of not questioning and accepting what is stated as given and more than that, want to find the explanation as mysterious and not knowable.

No double blind testing, no proof, no empirical evidence...suggest that what is bogus, is so, and should remain so until proven otherwise. But, and this is a big but, despite evidence to the contrary...there will always be belivers in crap, no matter where you go or how much evidence is provided....the Emperor always has a new wardrobe.

-B

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#179754 - 08/23/05 05:54 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: laf7773]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
As I mentioned we've done the NTKO thing to death in another thread http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15751210/an/0/page/. Feel free to discuss the why's and wherefores of what you think is and isn't happening there.

The discussion I wanted to have is specifically how the largest organisation in the world promoting PP's is killing itself by turning itself into a study ground for stage magicians, instead of a group with an immense ammount of information on PP theory but does not seem willing to share in any great depth.

If anyone honestly believes that the NTKO's are utter nonsense I gladly take issue with that point as much as I would with anyone who tries to convince me that their using Chi to do it.

Arggggggh.....you're probably right, lets lock this thread and move on. People on both sides of the fence seem equally unwilling to participate in civil discussion. Just thought it would be good for both sides of the PP world to communicate.
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#179755 - 08/23/05 09:22 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Ah man i really wanted to hear from that Italian guy as he was there.

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#179756 - 08/23/05 10:41 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Jango]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
One thing to consider is what is natural and normal in the process of human developement. In childhood and in early adolesence the is a period where "Magical thinking" is natural, normal and developmentaly appropriate. To chide a child or young teen for believing in or searching for magical solutions is as foolish and counterproductive as spanking 9 month old for not walking. That stage in a child is natural and normal. It needs to be respected and nurtured. In an adult it can be a pathology that needs to be treated. Any training if it is going to be of value should move us incrementalty toward what is real and true to the degree that we can bear it. That ability varies from individual to individual. We can nurture a child and responsibly urge and encourage our partners and students to embrace what is real and true about themselves , others and life in general. Growing in our ability to experience the fullness of life is hard work.If your training helps you to do that effectively your training is of great value.

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#179757 - 08/23/05 11:09 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi gavin,
Firstly thank you for the link,
If you want to understand who i am, i am the person that is fingerlocked by leon jay near the end of the video

I want to focus about the believer and not believer.
Have you ever tried to do something without believing in it? It became really hard. Instead if you are believing in that you're doing it became easier.
If you refuse something your mind make it impossible or really hard and viceversa.
If you are not a believer you are not able to perform a NTKO but you can be NTkockedOut, but you haven't to resist... resist like the NG expert.
I am soon of a medician and a nurse and in the beginning i was really sceptic and was hard for me believe in something like chi, chi projection, PPKO,NTKO ...
But a time i thought, now i try for 1or 2 years and if after i don't will became able to do certain things, i will send my instructor to hell and i will begin to do boxe.
But in this period i have to believe in that i am doing because if i don't believe i only lose time. When i start to train myself believing i become able to do that.
Somebody say that you can be everything you want to be just only you believe to be able, so your mind push completely yourself to became able to do.
Sure i cannot became mazinga z or ufo robot but if i don't believe in that i am doing i will not be able to do anything.
I am realist when i am doing MA and I want also to say that NTKO is bullshit on the streets (sometimes also pressure point KO is bullshit on the streets), but explain you the concept that you are not only a physical object but also an enegetic one, and you have to put your attention also to other things than the pysical ones.
Returning to the documentary, the expert of NG wanted to do an experiment, that you see when george project his energy aganist a person behind a sheet hold by 2 persons (it isn't a sheet but i don't know how to say that).
the experiment was so:

1. Put a person behind this "sheet"
2. The person cannot see anything through this "sheet"
3. The person don't know when george start to project his CHI
4. George haven't to do noises (so he can advert the person behind the "sheet")
5. let to pass + or - 2 minutes
6. An expert advert george to start to project
7. The person go down

This was an experiment wanted by National Geographic and George passed this exam with full marks, theres no suggestion in the NTKO this experiment demontrate this.

In the other corner, for the shouting NTKO, where a person try to hit george with a punch, george choose the weakest person (energetically speaking) that i know... but he isn't an actor and it isn't simulating.
If you try a PPKO on he work great...
The PPKO don't work easy on everybody (so you know), on somebody work with exceptional results and in other person work less, the same things are for NTKO. I am sure (and i know) that George and Leon choose weak person (energetically speaking) to perform their NTKO, but they were doing real things not tales.
I am sure also that Geroge Dillman is not become only a good MA master but also a good business man... but not a cherlatan.

Gavin this is only the head of an iceberg about that i want to say about NTKO,CHI,TCM, George Dillman, Ryukyu Kempo, the documentary and MA, but i prefer to go slowly and step by step.

I hope to be useful for everyone want to understand more about the documentary and their doubts.
Please everyone ask me directly on this forum everything he want, if i am able i try to answer to you.

Sure of your good intents

Kind regards Daniel

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#179758 - 08/23/05 11:59 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Thanks very much for the reply Daniel. I understand that it must be very hard to word such a long reply in a foriegn language. And the term "sheet" is perfect!

I can hear people firing up their keyboards already, please be constructive and show Daniel the respect he deserves for taking the time to reply.

Daniel, I'm going to take some time to think of a reply. If this does get silly in a public forum, we'll do it privately over email, as I have a lot of questions to ask you regarding DKI practices! Stay tuned my friend!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179759 - 08/23/05 01:08 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Had a think, and once again I'd like thank Daniel for responding.

My issue with practically everything that I have seen the DKI do, is that it just doesn't take into account the way an actual fight would occur. NTKO's whether using Sound or Chi as the explanation simply do not work consistantly enough to be taken seriously as a Martial Arts technique let alone a combative one. I know that you guys have performed hundreds within the dojo, but when tried on people from outside that have failed time and time again. I know the argument that they are resisting and that on the street they wouldn't know it was coming on the street, but the way it is being experiemented on the T.V programs is failing. For me, unless it can be shown to work 90% of the time I wouldn't show it to anyone, let alone go on world wide TV with it.

As you so rightly said, NTKO's are bullshit in a real life fight, but if this is the case why go on world wide TV and promote it as a fighting technique? Whether Dillman said it or not, this is how it is precieved to the outside world. If doesn't work in real life, its not a fighting technique. If its not a fighting technique, its not Martial Arts in my opinion.

Recently, virtually all of the publicity about the DKI has been around the NTKO. At this stage of the game, I don't feel that this has any place apart from in a magic show. I want to see the DKI going back to what it does best, Kata Bunkai and PP research. I especially want to see it start developing effective combat ready PP attacks, that would work under the effects of adrenaline and against agressive violent opponents. I want to see the DKI stop marketing these unrealiable NTKO's, and show Dillman to be the great MA that I know he is, rather than a money making machine. I especially want the NTKO stuff kept out of Martial Arts until it is fully understood and can be be used consistently.

Until that time I don't think the DKI will earn any respect whatsoever, which is truely a shame.

Yours respectfully,
Gav.

PS. I hope this wasn't offensive to you, I'm just trying to be honest. I would really like to talk TCM and stuff with you privately, but I think the issues I have with this stuff is the same as the rest of the guys on this forum.


Edited by Gavin (08/23/05 01:11 PM)
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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