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#179780 - 09/23/05 09:03 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
This Dillman pressure point knockout stuff is a joke. I can't believe anyone studies this. I spoke to a neurologist and he almost fell out of his chair when I asked if someone could be knocked out by simply applying pressure to a spot on their neck. According to him and my own personal belief it is not going to happen. Unless that pressure is a choke of course. The people that fall down at his seminars are like the people that fall down when a preacher touches them. Starved for attention and needing to believe something works.

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#179781 - 09/23/05 09:31 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Fightknight]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I'm affraid that I disagree with you there mate. If you don't believe in the Chi/Qi explanation of it look at it from a neurological point of view. If you send the brain more signals than it can process it will shut down, I'm sure your neurologist friend will confirm this. Take some time to research where some PP's lie, and then have a look at what nerve clusters sit around that point. Alot of the PP knockouts can be explained very simply as a neurological overload that causes the brain to "shut down" to avoid damage. Some though can only be explained from a TCM point of view. Either way, as far as I'm concerned as long as people are put in pain, I really don't care how it works, just that it does.

With regards to people falling over when the preachers touch them to the head, this is nothing more than a trick that utilizes the same theory of a forced neurological shutdown by overloading the brain. The spot they strike is a cluster of Gall Bladder points shown here. When preachers "touch" here, people claim to see white lights, feel faint and sometimes blackout. Anyone can do this, just thud down into these points with both with both hands on each side of the head downwards the base of the spine using the palms of the hand. If you look at the Preachers when they do this, they'll usually combine it with frantic body movements (as they are taken with the holy spirit) and then violently smash into the Gall Bladder cluster. People fall over claiming to be touched by a divine force, I've replicated this many times, and as much as I'd like to think I'm a divine force, I think the explanation is slightly more earthly.

Wally Jay once said that "Pain makes believers", its very easy to dismiss something you've never experienced. I really recomend actually feeling someone whap a few points on you before completely calling foul.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179782 - 09/23/05 10:49 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I don't doubt that there are spots on the body when hit hard that result in a KO. I also know that there are points where pressure will result in pain but that is a far cry from this Dillman one touch knock out nonsense. If this worked it would be the ultimate martial art. Why roll with people if you can just touch them and knock them out? Why is Dillman a fringe martial artist instead of mainstream? Why hasn't one guy in the UFC or Pride just touched a guy's neck and knocked him out? There is no rule against it. I'll tell you why. Because he can"t. It is impossible. Let some Dillman guys enter the UFC and one touch Arlovski or MattHughes and incapacitate them and I will retract everything I have said.
P.S The system you have a link to is full of strikes etc...why bother just touch the guy and the fight is over.

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#179783 - 09/23/05 10:55 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Fightknight]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Oh sorry, I misunderstood...I thought you were referring to the K.O's done when striking people, not the no touch stuff. My misunderstanding, sorry!

Must admit, when someone enters the UFC doing no touch stuff successfully I'll definately be signing up for it!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179784 - 10/05/05 03:21 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
MattBrown Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3
Loc: Concord, NH, USA
I usually dont get dragged into debates as to what would work in a fight, what is real and what isnt real...but this one hits a nerve (no pun intended) with me. The NTKO was not meant to replace hitting. It was originally designed to prove that the energy existed. That it could be manipulated and that it could "enhance" your pressure point work. It is done for demonstration purposes and I think that is where I get upset.

I happened to be a very close friend of George Dillman and I can insure you 100% that in a real fight he is not going to try to NTKO you. He is going to hit you, albeit on pressure points, and hard.

It is just like the KO's done using pressure points. People get so hung up on them that they miss the point. Pressure points are entryways into the human nerve structure. I dont care who you are or what art you do, you use nerve points to some extent. They are there to make your techniques more effective, painful etc. Wally Jay does a tricep tendon arm bar, that just happened to be a pressure point. Gracie Jujitsu using points on the inside of the legs to pass the guard, just happens to be a pressure point.

Every style uses at least one. They may not call it that but I may have different names for one technique that some else has another.

We and I mean DKI are NOT trying to replace any martial arts system nor are we trying to say that we have some superpower that others do not nor are we saying to stop hitting, kicking, throwing and locking. We are simply sharing what we have in hopes that maybe it might help expand knowledge and enhance the arts, We do NOT believe we have all the answers. We actually believe in looking for them, never ever giving up the search for better more effective ways of defending. That is why DKI is made up of so many different and diverse arts instead of just one art.

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#179785 - 10/05/05 06:51 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MattBrown]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Matt, thank you for posting. I'm a fan of your posts on the DKI forum.

My point is, and I hope I highlighted in the post (especially if your a friend of George) is that this stuff shown in the documentary is what sticks in peoples minds. I've personally had George Dillman stick a point on me that sank me to the floor, I accept that as real. Moving me in a line at Starbucks? I'm afraid I think this crap damages the reputation of PP fighters (including yourself). I was personally involved in a Leon Jay experiment and felt nothing. I still stand by those comments and all that I have made in this thread, I hope you don't take that as offensive, I just see things from the point of reality.

Kind regards,

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179786 - 10/06/05 10:34 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MattBrown]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Hello Matt,

Quote:

The NTKO was not meant to replace hitting. It was originally designed to prove that the energy existed. That it could be manipulated and that it could "enhance" your pressure point work. It is done for demonstration purposes and I think that is where I get upset.




It may have been what it was originally designed to prove ,but it has seemed to take on a life of its own (as things often do) and seems to have become the 'goal' for many people working with kyusho/tuite these days. That is where I have the problem.


Quote:

I happened to be a very close friend of George Dillman and I can insure you 100% that in a real fight he is not going to try to NTKO you. He is going to hit you, albeit on pressure points, and hard.




I am a friend of George and Kim as well and agree that he will take you down, and it looks nothing like the seminar stuff.


Quote:

It is just like the KO's done using pressure points. People get so hung up on them that they miss the point. Pressure points are entryways into the human nerve structure.




Now this is an excellent point and one I like to make as often as I can. Many people mistake what goes on in open seminars for 'all that DKI' has to offer. It isn't. There are some very knowledgeable people with DKI and there is great info there, you just shouldn't look to the seminars to get it, problem being people do. The KO's are great but it is not all that the study of kyusho/tuite have to offer.


Quote:

We and I mean DKI are NOT trying to replace any martial arts system nor are we trying to say that we have some superpower that others do not nor are we saying to stop hitting, kicking, throwing and locking. We are simply sharing what we have in hopes that maybe it might help expand knowledge and enhance the arts, We do NOT believe we have all the answers. We actually believe in looking for them, never ever giving up the search for better more effective ways of defending. That is why DKI is made up of so many different and diverse arts instead of just one art.




Dillman Karate International is a great organization and has some of the best people you can know as well as some martial artists with vast info on kyusho and tuite. There are bad apples like in every organization as well as people who just don't get it. But as far as George well he's a peach. We didn't get to see him here in Houston due to the hurricane but hopefully Al Garza will reschedule.


Thanks for joining the forum Matt. Please continue to contribute.

-KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#179787 - 10/14/05 01:17 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Kempoman]
ZoneD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 10
Firstly I have to say – I haven’t readed nor wroted to too many forums, but here I feel that I should give my input on this subject. Hopefully this does not come too late. Somehow I feel that here are honest & humble people talking civilized way. So, I try to make this short…

I have been studying pressure points since 1993. I was with DKI over 10 years, George is in my humble opinion a man with great ability, but what comes to National Geography documentary - its far more, than bullshit. Also the explanations why it didn't work is BS too. I saw the reaction of a scientist to Leon Jay’s projection, but they didn’t say that on TV.

Still remember this clearly, back in April 1997, while visiting at George’s home I asked him about one PPKO technique (humbly willing to learn) – He explained it to me, as well did it to me. After that it took several years to fully understand what happened, why it happened and how to do it. This particular technique opened to me just about a month ago (2005). Now, during the last two weeks, I have done it to several different persons, with success rate 100%. What actually Dillman showed and explained was just a one part of it. Study goes forward…

I have spoken to neurologists, doctors, shiatsu healers, acupuncturists, chiropractics, energy healers – all of them has ‘given’ a piece to this puzzle.

IMHO (in my humble opinnion) no-one needs to study meridians and TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) to learn kyusho. Why? Because TCM theories will just explain what has already happened, and helps to understand what to restore/heal - but NOT what to do to cause such things. On the view point of MWM (Modern Western Medicine), there are nerves underlying on the pp’s (pressure points). But even that will not fully explain this.

Personally, I did show NT type techniques at public, too early. Too early means that I wasn’t understanding it enough when started doing it.

Nowadays I teach regularly around the world kata bunkai and related things with pressure points and including things what we have founded. Also, success rate on NT’s is increased from 70% and continue the path upwards, maybe I would not or I might do that on street.

Someone on this forum with this topic said that all what he could find from George’s seminars, books & tapes, was basic pieces, partially true. I was following DKI quite intensive – and many times saw similar technique performed but every time it was slightly different way to do it.
There are many different ways to do that.

When George (or Kim) does a technique it certainly looks like something else, than what the truth is. It seems that he hits like a truck, but the truth IS different. Many of GD's techniques are designed to be so clever, that no-one can see the correct answer directly from his seminars, books or videos (VHS or DVD), but the answers are there.

I can assure that pressure points can cause pain, temporary paralyze, knockout or even death. Also many of these phenomenon's can be done safely to the opponent without any side effects (meaning here short term & long term effects). LOL, not the death part of course..

Fully intensive study, what we have done with my co-instructors so far in PPKO’s and NTKO’s, has given deeper understanding on our own bodies, but also about the opponents body reactions.

If I would stop my own study, every time when find something that I could not do .. I wouldn’t find anything nor learning anything…

What is Chi/Qi/Ki/Prana/Bioenergy? BS? Is there something? What?

My native language is not English, and I bet you can see that.. Hopefully my point can be seen in this text…

_______________________
Yours in the Arts,

Toni Kauhanen
www.KYUSHOAIKIJUTSU.com

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#179788 - 10/14/05 07:09 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: ZoneD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi toni,

Thanks very much for your input, I don't think anyone is arguing the validitiy of PP knockouts, merely the amount of importance that seems to be placed on the NTKO's as a valid combat technique. Many very experienced DKI have agreed both in this thread and privately via email with the concerns that the NTKO's seem to be dominating all the press that the DKI is getting lately.

But, anyway like I said thanks for your input...and if english isn't your first language then it most definately didn't show. Many thanks, and it'd be great if you could become a regular here, we've got quite a few people interested in the PP's....your experience would be gratefully received!

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179789 - 10/14/05 07:21 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
ZoneD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 10
Gav,

Totally agree with you, NTKO's has been up way too much.

I try to find some time to read and maybe also post around here.. Those who are interested on this subject - i'm ready to help.

Thanks for your kind words, but my first language is finnish.. and if I use it here.. i guess no one understand that. Kiitos! (thanks)
_________________________
Yours in the Arts, Toni Kauhanen www.KYUSHOAIKIJUTSU.com

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