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#179740 - 08/20/05 09:31 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Victor Smith]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Oh. My. God.

That was the biggest bunch of BS I have seen in a while. Pathetic!!!!!

A RIDDLE WRAPPED IN A MYSTERY INSIDE AN ENIGMA THAT IS COVERED IN COMPLETE BS.

I had to stop watching when I saw the jr. black belt throwing a Chi-ball. Garbage. I can't believe a formerly reputable martial artist promotes this crap, and I further can't believe that anyone else FALLS FOR IT!!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! IDIOTS!!!!!!!

_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#179741 - 08/21/05 05:43 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sorry guys just got an email from my ISP complaining saying that I'm exceeding the bandwidth to my server. We've gone from about 16meg a day to over a gig in the past couple of days. I've had to move the file I'm affraid, before they shut my site down.

This is just an emergancy post to say sorry for taking it down. PM me if you want a copy!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179742 - 08/22/05 07:01 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi all, thanks for all the comments on this one. Opinion seems to be pretty much universal. I've shown it to quite a few people this weekend and they were equally unimpressed. Some non-martial artist friends thought it was a joke! This is going to be a long post - BE WARNED!

Before I go any further I'd like to say that I have a lot of respect for both George Dillmans and Leon Jays physical abilities. I've seen Leon Jay at 3 seminars now, 2 of these I was really impressed with, the other I'll explain in a minute. And as far as Dillman goes, I think he is an extremely powerful and fast fighter, and honestly believe he has a fantastic knowledge of the Martial Arts.

Now, I fully understand some of the bad press both Dillman and the DKI (Dillmans organisation) have received over their PP work (prior to the No Touch Knockout Stuff), and partly agree. Not one of the knockouts I have ever seen done by the DKI has been done in a realistic way against non-compliant people. But, I think that to do a KO against someone going full power at you, you'd have to KO them at full power, so for safety reasons I can see some reasoning. Basically I want to state pre-rant that I do respect the abilities of both Dillman, Jay and others amongst the top DKI ranks who I've seen. They have alot of theory on the PP's which I'd like.

To give an example of where my respect for the DKI stood, up until March of this year I was extremely interested in becoming qualified with them.

Sorry for the lengthy intro, but I think the rest of this post is going to be extremely anti-DKI, so I wanted to give them the respect I feel Dillman deserves. Now, I'm going to be speaking from the point of view as a consumer and someone who is planning on dedicating a fair part of his life to the study of PP fighting.

In March I went to a Dillman seminar hosted over here in the UK by Leon Jay. A group of us went along from my club, and had a great time during the Dillman slot. He was funny, gave alot of good information about Kata Bunkai, PP's and stances. One of his guys stuck a point on me that brought my knee's up to chest and landed me in the fetal position on the floor, cool!!!! Dillman taught for a good 3 or 4 hours so we really got our moneys worth. And I was convinced that I wanted to become a DKI instructor! I know that some of the stuff wouldn't work in a live situation, but I have enough practical experience to adapt it.

We had a break then Leon Jay came out to do a slot. The first thing he had us do was to stand behind each other and try to pull each other using our chi. I've seen a UK TV Magician/Mentalist/God called Derren Brown do this, so I wasn't really that impressed, but stuck with it neither the less. I got my stuff from Dillman, so I was happy.

Then he got us to stand in a four or five lines of about 20 with our hands resting on the person in fronts shoulder (in the same way that they were during the clip). Leon then stood behind us all and used his chi to pull us all back. I can honestly say, and I speak for 5 others aswell, that not one of us was pulled back. I'll openly admit that we moved, but this was due to the 10 people in the line in front of us pushing back on me, not because we were being pulled backwards. Leon then proclaimed that he had moved 60+ people using his chi. As I said, I have nothing but respect for Leon Jay, and his farther Prof Wally Jay, but this was a joke. Photo's were taken of us all, and I suspect that it hit the magazines too. I can state caterogally that I was NOT pulled back, I was pushed back. If the people in front of me were pulled back I can't say, but I felt absolutely no pulling sensation whatsoever, I declare that experiment a failure. I feel embarassed to have been part of it. I still hadn't lost complete faith in the DKI though.

I got back from the seminar and started seriously looking around the web for more info on the DKI and kept on reading about Sound K.O's, Emotional K.O's and lots of No Touch KO's, alarm bells really started ringing.

Now, I'm going to take a moment to look at this objectively, let's for the sake of arguement agree that something is happening here. I don't think that anyone will argue that something is actually causing these guys to go out, I think what we're arguing is what is actually putting these guys out. Now we've covered NTKO's till the cows came home, were milked and died of old age in another thread, so I'll skip over what I thinks happening, but state that something is making these guys KO. Knocking people out has obviously combative applications and thus needs reasearching. So lets say this is a new Technology. Now I work with I.T and have to develop applications regularlly. If I release a program that crashes and fails every 10 minutes I'll be a laughing stock and loose all crediability amongst my peers and customers. Software crashing every 10 minutes shows that it hasn't been tested well enough and more importantly that I don't know enough about it! I see the NTKO stuff as that.

Dillman is a very clever man, I really don't think that he'd persue something that didn't have some merit. But is this stuff ready to be released in the wild? No way! Will it it ever be ready? Don't know. I would have thought with the James Cameron humiliation on national TV the DKI would have learnt, but obviously not. That program has made the DKI the laughing stock of the Martial world!

Sorry for the long post, but this really effects me as a Martial Artists quite alot. PP's is an area where I wish to specialise and hopefully contribute too. It is an area that already has many many doubters, and having the worlds most famous PP fighter humiliated on world wide TV makes us all look like nutjobs!

In case you haven't noticed I'm no longer persuing a career with the DKI (think after this post I've not really got a choice!), and have been lucky enough to find the Dragon Society International run by Rick Moneymaker and Tom Muncy. Through them I have found out about Russell Stutely, and am now persuing a path of study with combat orientated PP specialists. I haven't yet met Mr Stutely, but have had a few discussions with him over the email and brought some of his DVD's. He definately appears to be preaching from a book that I want to follow, I'm going onto a weeks camp with him in november so I'll let you know. If there's one mention of No Touch KO's though, I'll be on the first flight back (I have faith though, and think that I'll be signing up for the next camp!).

So, as far I as I'm concerned as a MA's consumer, the DKI have lost my respect and money. I'm a young and mouldable instructor looking to expand his horizons and the DKI will not be getting my money!



Would anyone from the DKI be willing to join in this discussion??????

Gav

PS. Sorry for the long post! I have issues!


Edited by Gavin (08/22/05 07:44 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179743 - 08/22/05 11:02 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Gavin,
I'm a Ryukyu Kempo (Dillman method) student and I was there while Leon tried to Knock-out the National Geographic expert, I'am the big blonde guy that is ready to catch the expert if he was go down (I don't know how to say this correctly.. I'm italian mother language).
I know that the expert has tried in any manner to resist to the knock out (Is well known that if you resist the NTKO don't work), I spoke with him and he explain me that he was really scared by certains "procedures, operations" and was also impressed by the sensations that he feel during the Leon Jay NTKO try.
But I HAVEN'T SEE the special so please can you send me DKI-NG.WMV to [Email]supernoce@libero.it.[/Email]
So when I see this video we can continue our discussion, I don't want to speak about a thing that I hadn't see.
Reading your previous posts i have made a good idea about you, i think to speak with a person which is drived by the reason and the passion about MA... our discussion can will be really interesting and useful for both

Sure of your attention
Bye
Daniel

Please excuse my bad english

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#179744 - 08/22/05 11:29 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Daniel.

Your english is far better than my italian so no worries! I think your quite brave for offering to speak up, epsecially after some of the previous posts about the DKI.

I really want the DKI to have a chance to take part! If you have any DKI colleagues who'd also be willing they're more than welcome!

I think we could have a great discussion over this, so can we keep it respectful people though. Try and ease up on the Dillman for/against slurs and try not to get this thread locked!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179745 - 08/22/05 11:52 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
I really would like to hear what Daniel has to say.

Thank you aswell Gavin for starting this thread as I saw the documentary aswell on National Geographic and being a Kyusho Jitsu practioner I have to say am dissapointed about that no touch bs. I do believe that pressure points do work though but as far as the sound and no touch ko goes thats a no no for me.

Regards,
Jango.

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#179746 - 08/22/05 11:58 AM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Jango]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Your welcome Jango. I've set up an account on dkiforum.com. I'm debating inviting them to come and join in the conversation. But I think it might seem a bit disrespectful to go onto another forum after I've slagged them off. Hopefully if we can keep this from being a flame war though, in which case it could be worthwhile for them to come over and put their side across.

Opinions....would it be inappropriate?

Gav


Edited by Gavin (08/22/05 01:09 PM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179747 - 08/22/05 12:08 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Gavin,

Not worthwhile....like so many infatuated with certain beliefs...aliens, ghosts, etc. without any scientific evidence to support these claims, they believe despite the evidence and rationalize an escape from any argument...even though proof is against them.

-B

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#179748 - 08/22/05 12:30 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: butterfly]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah kinda agree. It would degenerate into a flame war I think. Daniel has got his head screwed on and has kindly offered to discuss things and he was actually there which is a bonus!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179749 - 08/22/05 05:44 PM Re: George Dillman on National Geographic [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Is anyone really surprised by all of this with Dillman?

In this day and age of instand media, there is NO place left for myth to hide, the exception being, within the minds of the weak who have a strong need to believe in fantasy. Apparently there is quite a number of just such people.


-John

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