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#179080 - 08/17/05 12:28 PM 5 Element Theory Basics
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
With my Shiatsu course coming up I've had to really start nailing down the basics of my TCM theory. As its relevant to the PP's, I thought I'd do a quick guide to the 5 Element Theory. Hope this is of interest:

I'm presuming that by reading this forum, you have a basic understanding of the Meridians of the body. If not, in a nutshell according to Tradional Chinese Medicine (TCM) theory the body is covered by 20 meridians (12 Main Meridians and 8 Extra Ordinary Meridians) or energy pathways that carry Ki/Qi energy around the body.

The 5 Element Theory
====================

Each of the 12 main meridians are associated with one of five elements; Water, Wood, Fire, Earth and Metal. In TCM the Five Element theory is used as a framework to describe the relationships between each of the main meridians of the body, and provide a basis from which to diagnose and administer an appropriate treatment.

The main Meridians of the body can be broke down as such:

Fire
====
Small Intestine
Heart
Pericardium (aka Heart Constrictor or Heart Govenor)
Tripe Warmer (aka Triple Burner or Triple Heater)

Earth
=====
Stomach
Spleen

Metal
=====
Lungs
Large Intestine

Water
=====
Kidney
Bladder

Wood
====
Gall Bladder
Liver

With the 5 Element theory there are a number of cycles which describe the energetic relationships of each of the 5 elements. From a Martial perspective we only need look at two of them; The Cycle of Creation and The Cycle of Destruction.

The Cycle of Creation
=====================

The Cycle of Creation is a nourishing cycle, whereby the Mother meridian nourishes the child. In other words each elements feeds the next one in the cycle and this can be summarized as follows:

Water creates Wood (by nourishing growth)
Wood creates Fire (the wood is burned to make fire)
Fire creates Earth (when it extinguishes it leaves ash, ash becomes earth)
Earth creates Metal (metal is formed in the earth)
Metal creates Water (solid metal melts to form liquid)

For example if we enhance the energy to the Earth, Metal will also become enhanced (metal is formed in the earth). Likewise if we enhance Wood, Fire will also be enhanced (the wood is burned to make fire).

The Cycle of Destruction
========================

The Cycle of Destruction is a control cycle in which one element exerts control over its next but one element in the in the Cycle of Creation. In TCM this is seen as a Grandparent-Grandchild cycle, whereby the Grandparent element exerts control over its Grandchild element, providing control over the behaviour of its Grandchild element. This cycle can be summarized as follows:

Water controls Fire (by extinguishing it)
Fire controls Metal (by melting it)
Metal controls Wood (by cutting it)
Wood controls Earth (by covering it)
Earth controls Water (by damming it)

For example if you enhance the energy to Metal, you will retard the energy to Wood (metal cuts wood). If you enhace the energy to Fire, you will retard the energy to Metal (fire melts metal).


I hope that was of interest, I've had my head buried in books for months and this is the basis of both begining to understand TCM theory and the science behind PP striking.

I've taken most of it from my notes from loads of TCM and Martial books. For those interested in learning how this information applies to PP striking, I'd thoroughly recomend taking a look at The DSI's website has some execellent books and a forum packed full of information!

Gav


Edited by Gavin (08/17/05 12:34 PM)
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#179081 - 08/19/05 06:32 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Gavin,

I focus more on the techniques rather than the theories of why they work behind them. I don't doubt it,but for me it's just not worth the study.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#179082 - 08/19/05 06:47 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: SANCHIN31]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
For me unfortunately I've got to learn it, in fact I've got 3 years solid of it of my Shiatsu course.

From a Martial perspective though, I'm a bit of geek. I like to know whats going on behind the scenes. I'm very interested in finding out whether the PP's can honestly be fully utilized in a true combat sense.

I'm a firm believer in using individual points in actual combat, but want to really try and see whether the deeper aspects (such as Metal cuts wood, etc) is really truely workable. I've been looking over the Torite Jutsu's 50 core techniques which each utilize various laws from the 5 Element theory which is currently flying way over my head. Alot of great MA's (and a few not so great) are now researching this field so I feel there must be some weight in it.

With the knowledge that I'll gain through my study of shiatsu and my other experiences hopefully I'll be able to contribute one day. But before I can do that, I've got to learn the theories behind it. Obviously technique and actual ability are paramount, but the geek in me and the part of me that wants to contribute to the fighting arts requires me to learn the theory side too!
_________________________
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#179083 - 08/19/05 09:15 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
appriciate the post Gavin,

As you know i am slowly looking at these kind of things and the information you have posted is very usefull to me.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#179084 - 08/19/05 10:11 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sho, no worries mate. I've got some more indepth theory notes that I'm going to try get typed up over the next week or so. I'll email you them when it's ready. Hopefully once we've had a play around with some Bunkai together we could post some of our findings from our newbies perspective!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
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#179085 - 08/19/05 07:09 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
no worries, should be fun. Just dont expect me to understand the theory...........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#179086 - 08/22/05 05:20 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
cks_cropper Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 63
Gavin, would you mind if I had a read over the notes you are typing up? I am also interested in more than just technique. Ive only started martial arts about 6 months ago and im loving all the information around about it all. Spend over 100 on books already!!

thanx
CKS

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#179087 - 08/23/05 06:32 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: cks_cropper]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hiya CKS, I don't want to sound patronising or disrespectful but after six months training you really shouldn't be concerning yourself with PP's. As interesting a topic as PP's are and how effective they can be, they are simply the icing on the cake, but their not the cake. It's really easy to get carried away with PP's and see them as something more than they are. All they are is extremely advance points of attack that require an extremely high level of expertise to attack. I've been training for over 18 years now and am only just starting to feel remotely comfortable with even begining to start learning to attack them properly.

The notes that I've got won't really help you that much (they don't really mean much to me! ). Shoshinkan is going to actually be training with me after his grading (this week isn't mate? Good Luck!!!!!!) and has tons of practical experience. Combined with our mutual studies of Shiatsu he is a bit closer to be able to understand my ramblings. Once we've got some basic stuff together I'm sure we'll post it up here, but until then I think any notes would hinder rather than help you.

Hope that didn't come across disrespectfully, but I'm sure the more experienced guys here will back me up on this point.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179088 - 08/23/05 07:44 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
cks_cropper Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 63
Ok fair point. Not a problem. Most likely the books I am about to read will also go way over my head but eventually I will understand more. At the moment I just keep reading things that are opening up new topics about everything so ill see what I can come accross myself.

thanx
CKS

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#179089 - 08/24/05 05:02 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: cks_cropper]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I agree mate. I thinking of starting a PP of the week post. Where by we can discuss a point, how to strike it, situations where it could work etc. I think that would probably be of more benefit to people than explaining the 5 element stuff. Anyone up for it?
_________________________
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Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179090 - 08/24/05 05:42 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yep indeedy
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#179091 - 08/24/05 05:53 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hokay, I'll start with today! Hmmmmmmmm......which point to start with???
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179092 - 08/24/05 05:59 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
tail bone area ?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#179093 - 08/24/05 06:08 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
GIT!!!!!!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179094 - 08/25/05 07:00 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Gavin,
Sure this will be really useful

Daniel

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#179095 - 08/25/05 09:17 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: shoshinkan]
kyushoguy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 14
Loc: uk
Hi all,

Take advice from someone who has been into PP's for several decades.

Ignore the five element theory.

For practicality it is a nonesense and for effectivenes of

PP's it is irrelevent.

Hit any points consequetively and you will get the same

results.

There is no sequence of PP's that does not fit into one of

the theories be it diurnal, 5 element, yin/yang whatever.

So you can hit any in a row and it'll work.

Dont waste yer time on this stuff learn to fight

incorporating PP's as targets, no more.

KG

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#179096 - 08/25/05 09:57 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Studying Shiatsu means that unfortunately I can't ignore them. I also think it makes an interesting point of discussion for learning more about the human body and the way it works. There's only so much you can say about whapping a specific point. Good for the artistic side too aswell.

He did you start your Kyusho studies with?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179097 - 08/25/05 11:13 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Gavin - I believe its a higher form of the ART it also encompasses the healing, the Art is not always about fighting. A lot MA that are fighters feels that they don't need the intricate details or the how to.

Growth is still growth but it mean different things to different people.
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DBAckerson

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#179098 - 08/25/05 01:19 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Neko456]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I agree. At this stage in the game, I don't know enough about the mulitude of theories relating to the acupoints to say whether or not one day, when I'm old and grey (well greyer than I am now...Is it right to have grey hair sprouting through at the tender age of 27?????) that I won't be able to combine this principles and be the meanest old bloke on the block. But, whatever use they actually are, I've got to learn them for the healing side of my studies anyway, they can only benefit the Martial side as well.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179099 - 09/03/05 07:54 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
kyushoguy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 14
Loc: uk
Hi

Yes ive studied healing, rekhi, spititual healing, acupressure etc, and that is what the meridian theories are supposed to relate to.


Bu if you get a serious illness you wont be running to an expert in tcm.

I know it is fun to study these things when your young, and the idea that knowledge is power is something I subscibe to.

But this stuff will take you further away from learning what you actually need to know if you ever get attacked.


A knowledge of the bodies weak points is nessecary for street defence but as i said above find a random combination and it will fit one of the theories.

i.e.You can hit any points in succession to get an effect.

If you know the theories you will see I'm right if you dont you will waste time finding out im right.

your choice.

KG

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#179100 - 09/03/05 10:49 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Quote:

I agree. At this stage in the game, I don't know enough about the mulitude of theories relating to the acupoints to say whether or not one day, when I'm old and grey (well greyer than I am now...Is it right to have grey hair sprouting through at the tender age of 27?????) that I won't be able to combine this principles and be the meanest old bloke on the block. But, whatever use they actually are, I've got to learn them for the healing side of my studies anyway, they can only benefit the Martial side as well.




Haha, Gavin, I`m going to turn 19 in about half a a year and I already have a few gray hair.

About the theories... I think that in a real situation they don`t matter much. However, I wouldn`t call them a waste of time. I think that the theories are more important in the healing part and if you`re a geek like Gavin (and me ), they`re great. In a fight you attack what presents itself, no need to follow any specific theory IMO. But, I think, that afterwards everything can be explained by the theory. I think that at the beggining theories aren`t of that much use, but with time they get more important.
_________________________
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#179101 - 09/03/05 07:04 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Kosh]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
19....grey hair...geez, I doing well then!

As Kosh said, and kyushoguy have stated that there is probably a theory for every possible combination of strikes and if there isn't one, we could probably think of one.

However, I don't consider learning the theory a waste of time. Everything that enhances my knowledge of the human body is going to a bonus to my martial arts. If learning these theories was such a waste of time, why were they recorded in the kata's? Why are there many of the worlds top MA's studying this? Some of the material I'm studying at the moment is written by guys whose feet are firmly on the ground. I'm also a devoted realist, but I'm not yet ready to write off the pontential combat applications of these theories.

MA's like myself and Kosh (albeit I'm a bit greyer) are studying PP's in an age where there are so much information on this stuff its scary. Kysushoguy, have you looked much into the extraordinary meridians from a combative point of view? The information I've been given from others and from personal study points to some extremely practical uses of many of the theories.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179102 - 10/04/05 01:18 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
MikeC Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Kingston Ontario
Thank you, nice research.

For those who do not think it worth the time to study this kind of info, why did great students of the martial arts and fighting arts such as Miyagi Chojun did?

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#179103 - 10/05/05 07:37 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: MikeC]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Mike,

Thanks you your kind words, and welcome to the forum! Feel free to chip in on any of my threads whenever you like!

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179104 - 11/08/05 03:20 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: SANCHIN31]
TKA_KEMPO_NZ_8 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 3
Loc: NEW ZEALAND
Quote:

Gavin,

I focus more on the techniques rather than the theories of why they work behind them. I don't doubt it,but for me it's just not worth the study.




Anyone can bounce the brain off the inside of someones skull to knock them out,wouldnt u like to be able to do it with ease and control if need be???? not to mention extending your own skill level.
_________________________
SO MUCH TOO LEARN!!!

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#179105 - 11/08/05 04:52 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: TKA_KEMPO_NZ_8]
cks_cropper Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 63
Well I have just been having a very quick glance over this kind of stuff recently and did a weekend course with Grandmaster Tom Muncy and it shows how easy it if to do things to people with so little effort. And if you go adding things like the 5 element theory into it, whilst bearing in mind the body types of people, you know exactally the result for what you are putting in. Im going to be looking into it further.

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#179106 - 11/08/05 05:34 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
I say good for you. To me the best martial artist can not only systematically distroy his opponent but can also heal their ailments.
Shiatsu will be a great addition to your arts studies, especially if you are a teacher, your students will be needing the antidote to whatever damage they have done to themselves or others.
Here is another suggestion for an interesting read.
The Complete System of Self Healing - internal exercises - by Dr. Stephen T. Chang.
It might be hard to find this book because there weren't many printed so try eBay or a used book store.
This book does not deal with fighting but it does deal with the elements and physical exercises you can do and the order that builds or destroys these elements.
If you do continue to educate yourself this would be a bonus for you and whoever you teach.

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#179107 - 12/13/05 11:24 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Diga]
StayUnderMyWing Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 139
Loc: London, England
I carry this image around on my PSP. Indespensible if you're learning Wu-Xing.

www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/RussellStutley/Guest_Writers_Russell_Stutley_p10.htm


Mark.
_________________________
www.ukscreen.com/cast/markjoseph

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#179108 - 12/13/05 01:21 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: StayUnderMyWing]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Russell Stutely? Who's he? Bah!

If you're living in London Russell is doing a senimar this Sunday on Wave Forms and Balance Points. More info can be found here .

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179109 - 01/20/06 09:49 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
je8ki9 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 32
Loc: UK
Oih gavin
Im going to be the nastiest old git on the block!!!
you wait your turn whippersnapper!! Damn kids they would nick your pension if your not lookin
_________________________
John King www.gosokempo.com

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#179110 - 01/20/06 10:25 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: je8ki9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Now I don't care if you're my father.....YOU'LL bloody well behave yourself in *MY* forum!!!! Now be good baldy or I'll get you banned!!!!!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179111 - 01/20/06 12:16 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Gavin]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Gavin,

Do you ever learn! I'd keep your mouth firmly shut if i were you because it'll only end up with us all receiving another spirit workout!

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#179112 - 01/21/06 10:18 AM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: jamesd]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Is this a Go So Kempo bitching ground or a PP forum??? You behave aswell!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#179113 - 01/25/06 01:27 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
Dustindapirate Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 2
NOOOOOOOOO!
The five elemental theory makes knocking out, shutting an organ down, or even killing some one easier. Just hitting points wont do much. Knowing the points is essential. I've only been doing the martial arts for a few months and already know a few ways to kill some one with special points, and have come up with 1 ok boonkies using the 5 elemental theory that could kill or knock out. The problem with just hitting point is that you could get the person to go out, but you would have to be more dead on in the hit and hit a hell of alot harder. This would make rub or touch points very hard to effect the person. If you really want to get into pressure points and learn alot Join the DKI. Dillman Karate International. He is the one who found all this stuff in such detail. He even trained the head master of the dragon institute mentioned earlier in the thread.

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#179114 - 01/25/06 01:36 PM Re: 5 Element Theory Basics [Re: Dustindapirate]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Firstly don't encourage Kyushoguy, I'd prefer him to stay wherever he is! Secondly, anyone who tells you that you can kill people after a couple of months of study is lying. Thirdly, I'm locking this long dead thread. If you have any *sensible* contributions or questions please post elsewhere as you see fit!
_________________________
Gavin King
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