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#178895 - 08/17/05 12:59 AM Self defense situation
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Last friday my student who is a jailer was involved in more altercations. He had a couple who were arrested and brought to the jail. The girl attacked him,he was holding her off when her boyfriend bearhugged him. The female deputy was apparently unsure of what to do and there was noone else there. He managed to throw the girl to the side and slam the guy into submission breaking his ribs. The female deputy finally subdued the girl.
This kind of thing happens to him alot,he knows what works and what doesn't within the legal limits of what he can do.
Did I mention he's my student? Heck of a nice guy and also a blackbelt in Hawaiian Kempo. He says he's used some of the stuff we've shown him and has had good results.
Could you handle this situation? What would you do?
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#178896 - 08/17/05 03:13 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Belnick Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1165
Loc: SWEDEN
Quote:


Could you handle this situation? What would you do?




if I could handle it?, nope, would break too many laws and get fired and most likely be prosecuted

on how about I would do it I am not sure, too many possibilities, but at one point I would prolly use the batong(well they "were" two
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#178897 - 08/17/05 03:16 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I don't envy your students job! I don't think I could say I could or couldn't handle the situation as it's something I have never experienced before so wouldn't really know what to expect. Granted we practice how to get out of bearhugs etc but it's a whole lot different in a real situation where you have to restrain someone and not have the opportunity to escape. As for what I would do, I'd make sure that female deputy gets some proper training to deal with situations like this should they ever arise again. Or maybe make sure there is at least more than 1 person at hand when every new prison inmate enters. I'm glad his training has helped him so much.
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#178898 - 08/17/05 03:24 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Wow, tricky one this as it involves what many guys, no matter what their training, would find difficult- force against a woman.

Everyone will have a different mental image of the scenario, so interpretations will vary, and the bearhug offers a couple of variables, namely, did it clamp down the arms, or were they free due to dealing with the woman?

Arms free: Use them as a fence for distancing the woman, as the opertunity arose, using back elbows, groin grab and digit manipulation to break the mans hold on me.
Legs are pushing off walls/solid objects to off-balance the man, raking shins, stomping feet and again kicked in the air to distance female.
I would attempt to use the back of my head to butt the guy, though this would probably be expected and avoided.
All the time using my voice to snap my colleague out of her panick, to assist with the female as priority one, then if/when successfull, and if necessary, assist with man (also to hit the panick button for more manpower).

Arms inside the bearhug: I would find this easier to be honest. I am quite wide so the addition of the arms will make a 'lock' on the hug more difficult for most people (my old instructor used to have great difficulty performing ogoshi throws on me- just couldnt get his arm round me )
legs I am using more as a fence than a weapon now, and using the power in my upper body to dislodge the man, from here i may still get in a position for groin strike/grab, and am also looking for the headbutt.
Voice as above.

Reasoning for assistant focusing on woman.
1. I know what the guy is capable of from a bearhug- not a lot. He is commited to it and can cause no further trouble outside this action.The damage to me is limited by this action.The woman on the other hand is free to do all sorts of nasty things.
2. In subduing the woman, his reaction may well be to release his grip and go to her assistance, if so I am free and its miller time
3. Quite often in mixed sex confrontations like this, it is the female that 'eggs on' the man, who fights harder out of a sense of bravado. Quell the motivation for the attack, weaken the resolve of the attack.

Well thats it. How did I do Coach? Can I start on Saturday
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#178899 - 08/17/05 03:33 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Cord]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
That's pretty good Cord.

I don't know all the specific details as I wasn't there. He didn't have much problem with roughing up the girl to get her under control. I don't know how big the guy was,but Kevin(my student) is 6' 280lb approximately. I wouldn't hesitate to treat the woman like a man if I had to.
I'll ash him more specifics tomorrow.I'd like to find out how exactly he went from being bearhugged to slamming the guy.
If in a bearhug I would drop my weight,try and step out to get him off balance and then use strikes or reach under for a leg.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#178900 - 08/17/05 06:00 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
If I'm reading this right then the guy wasn't the imeadiate threat in this particular situation (he was busy bear hugging your student) it was the girlfriend. His female colleague should most definately have placed herself between her restrained colleague and the threatening girlfriend and gone in with the baton to subdue the girlfriend, then turned to the boyfriend with the baton. Having said that, I don't know what the legal constraints of using the Baton are.

Security and Law enforcement is a team game and it definately sounds like the female deputy was the weak link in the chain. Obviously its really is easy to comment without being there, but it sounds like a reality training issue to me.

Dealing with irrate females is probably the worst situation you could deal with being a male. I had a situation last year working a bar showing a Soccer match, where a women easily in her fortys randomly attacked a table of 5 guys. My colleague jumped between her and the poor guys and I grabbed both her hands from behind. She then tried to bite my arm so I had to stick her in a full nelson and wobble my way to the door, she was back heeling me all the way! We have to be so careful, because if we are percieved to be going to hard on a girl, you'll usually get a bar full of guys jumping on you. Give me a guy to deal with any day of the week!!!!


Edited by Gavin (08/17/05 06:04 AM)
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#178901 - 08/17/05 10:56 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Yes dealing with women in the public eye is a tough issue it can insight a riot/public oppinon & make matters worse. Inside the confindes of a jail holding station with only 4 people present is a little different. Usually a woman that resisits or acts aggressively is treated like any attacker, maybe not punched but slammed.

Your student handled the situation effectively the only thing I'd add is he should have asked his stalemated female partner to call for backup. There is never too many Us, against them, No. 1 rule in Law Eenforcement.

He should have advised his partner what he wanted her to do. Like shoved the woman (after taking her breath with a tiger claw to throat and palm strike/push to the solar plex) to her knees saying "Hand cuff this B/ In mean woman, being PC". And handled the guy like he did (being in a bear hug is not a big problem, U know were his hands are. For few a seconds unless he starts to lift or sqeeze U, hundreds of ways to skin a cat). He skinned him nicely and nobody really got hurt badlly.

As mentioned a baton or assistance would have been nice. There are advantages and disadvantages in having a female officer as a partner.
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#178902 - 08/17/05 12:07 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I am suprised that Sanchen is the only one who suggested dropping his weight and using strikes/ leg grap to get out of a "bear hug".
I was recently taught to "puff up(flex arms and inhale)
than simultanoiusly, exhale relax raise arms in a "chicken wing motion" drop your weight and take a large step to the right(drop to a wide horse stance), then elbow to the midsection . or in my case I'm short so I useually end up with a good elbow to the hip which is better to me.
I have practiced this with large people(6'6",275 lbs,36" waiste)even when they pick me up off my feet it works and is very quick.
as for the female she'd probably want my partner to deal with her as I wouldn't hesitate to take her down like I would a male.

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#178903 - 08/17/05 05:30 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: ChangLab]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Changlab,
Seiunchin kata bunkai teaches what you described very effectively for dealing with a rear bearhug.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#178904 - 08/17/05 07:03 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
batterup Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 52
what martial art is he in?

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#178905 - 08/18/05 09:58 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Last friday my student who is a jailer was involved in more altercations. He had a couple who were arrested and brought to the jail. The girl attacked him,he was holding her off when her boyfriend bearhugged him. The female deputy was apparently unsure of what to do and there was noone else there. He managed to throw the girl to the side and slam the guy into submission breaking his ribs. The female deputy finally subdued the girl.
This kind of thing happens to him alot,he knows what works and what doesn't within the legal limits of what he can do.
Did I mention he's my student? Heck of a nice guy and also a blackbelt in Hawaiian Kempo. He says he's used some of the stuff we've shown him and has had good results.
Could you handle this situation? What would you do?




Well, I don't know whether I could have handled it but I do know a couple of escape techniques from bear-hugs (front and rear) and a number of choke submissions or control locks to follow up on that. It's taught early on (along with strangulation and clothing grab escapes) in my JJ syllabus, I'm sure many arts have effective techniques to deal with the situation but they must be trained to work from that position.
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#178906 - 08/18/05 09:59 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
If I personally was in that situation and knew her boyfriend was behind or to the side of me. I'd know that they are a team. The instant she made any aggressive motions toward me. I would be prepared engage them both equally. I would have backed / shed out of combat with the female. Attempting to keep both him and her infront of me. Thus avoiding the bear hug from the flank. No fancy techniques just a little common sense.

Always assume everyones against you. Street fights are seldom one on one. Practice sparring against multiple opponents. With the fighters gathered around the sparring area. Allow it so the fighters on the multiple side, can tag in and out. Good mental drill for such scenarios.

Tunnel vision can help you win in the ring, but on the street it can get you killed.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178907 - 08/18/05 10:25 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think your right in a personal street confrontation, but this was a professional situation which dictates that those involved have to obide by a code of conduct. In a world where the person doing the assualting gets more rights than the person being attacked, Law and Security professinoals have to be seen to be justified in their actions. Although reasonable force is subjective, this situation was not an all out fight. The officers had to restrain and contain the situation. This is why it always needs to be handled using teamwork.

I've been involved in and witnessed numerous situations where it has taken two or three of us to throw one person out, simply because we are not allowed to go full out. On the street I'm fairly confident that most of the people I've ever chucked out, I'd probably stand a fair chance of beating in a one on one personal situation, but professionally you can't smash people to pieces and expect to keep your job and probably your liberty.

So while I agree fully with you that on the street always be prepared to go it alone against multiple attackers, from a professional point of view you always want backup.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178908 - 08/18/05 10:40 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Nicely put Gavin. As a retired member of the samr 'trade' as you in the same country i am sure you will agree that whilst the police acknowledge that the job is necessary, they are always only too happy to take a keen interest in any complaint that could be made about our conduct.
like you said all you can do is 'grab n' drag' unless you want to get on first name terms with the local magistrate

As for the idea of not letting the guy get behind you in the first place, most police custody areas require people to be signed in and processed individualy.Hence the guy and woman being in different positions relative to the arresting officer. i would have thought that they could remain cuffed however, particularely in a poorly staffed area, but I guess procedures vary.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#178909 - 08/18/05 10:49 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I fully agree. Bomber jacket, a black tie and being fixed to a single venue make it nice and easy for the Old Bill to find us too!

Fingers crossed so far I've only been interviewed twice, once in the back of squad car and once down the station. Unfortunately some of my mates seem to have cell on a weekly reservation down the nick, but luckily I usually get to enjoy a beer at the end of night! *gav touches some very big pieces of wood*

Nice know there's others from the 'trade' on here too!


Edited by Gavin (08/18/05 10:51 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178910 - 08/18/05 10:51 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I myself am a Protection Officer. I understand where you are comming from.

Although mentally I do consider proffesional situations to be very similar to the street. Especially in prisons where its always the cons vs the guards. Though in a proffesional situation your ability to strike is taken away. Substituted with the ability to restrain only, in most cases at least.

I think that when I say engage the pair, you think I mean attacking the two out right?

What I really mean by that is face them both create distance and do the best to fend them off. Clear out of the situation. Then regroup with current backup or wait for more backup. Officer safety is usually priority one. Unless there is an innocent person directly in harms way.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178911 - 08/18/05 10:54 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I think that when I say engage the pair, you think I mean attacking the two out right?




Sorry, I did misunderstand you. 100% agree!


Edited by Gavin (08/18/05 10:55 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178912 - 08/18/05 10:59 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Well engage is a very vauge term. I should have been more specific in the first place. My bad.

_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178913 - 08/18/05 12:56 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
That is why I posted that specific technique.
An elbow to the stomach/xyphoid(solar plexis) is easy to defend againstIN COURT On camera it doesn't look like a "strike" not like a punch/kick would.
plus the technique is very effective and it is easy to create space once the hold is broken.
I have heard of other techniques like grabbing the smallest finger and twisting it which could lead to a broken finger and lawsuits.or headbutts (broken nose )same result.
some LEO's I've met have had very minnimal training(basic arm bar,"chicken wing" wrist lock,and basic hand cuffung techniques. they are seldom taught off balancing manuvers which is a key eliment to subduing a subject.
I think I'm rambling at this point.

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#178914 - 08/18/05 02:05 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Obeonewanker I think that was a slick move efficent and effortless, it would have solved the bearhug incident and given the female officer a chance to clear her head and join in the conflict. Nice observent move.

I also agree with the Kempo Man Gavin that LEO can't go full out and there is strength in numbers, bring it back to Onebeones slick move instead of three people in front of the female officer all of a sudden its two on two, if she gets her butt up front.

Great analogy guys! We are Love seat Quarter Backing the hell out of this one.


Edited by Neko456 (08/18/05 02:06 PM)

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#178915 - 08/18/05 03:14 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Neko456]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Two things.....

Quote:

the Kempo Man Gavin




I'm 'The Kempo Man'? Think Kempoman would have something to say about that!

Quote:

We are Love seat Quarter Backing the hell out of this one.




Excuse my quaint British understanding.....but is this the same as backseat driving????
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178916 - 08/18/05 04:09 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
That was a compliment as U well know. Yeah its pretty much the same kinda a safe hands off thang, with plenty hindsight & ideas.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#178917 - 08/18/05 04:49 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Neko456]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah I know, don't get them that often just drawing attention to it! Cool, I've got some US lingo that I can impress my friends with!!!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178918 - 08/19/05 03:14 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Belnick Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1165
Loc: SWEDEN
I thought he had the both arms in the bearhug, it is very easy to escape if he only hold one or none of the arms...
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the only one being punished for posting more than one post in 60 minutes

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#178919 - 08/22/05 05:11 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Belnick]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
I'll use your post to post. I would have stomped on the guys foot then elbowed his to get out of the bearhug. Then handcuffed him after properly disabling him. Then I would have assisted the woman. But I'm 13 so yeah. It'd work if I was bigger.
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I'm starting afresh.

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#178920 - 08/22/05 11:26 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Cord]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Cord: Solid technique & reasoning, no frills, KISS. Very nicely done! Go to the head of the class!
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