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#178905 - 08/18/05 09:58 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Last friday my student who is a jailer was involved in more altercations. He had a couple who were arrested and brought to the jail. The girl attacked him,he was holding her off when her boyfriend bearhugged him. The female deputy was apparently unsure of what to do and there was noone else there. He managed to throw the girl to the side and slam the guy into submission breaking his ribs. The female deputy finally subdued the girl.
This kind of thing happens to him alot,he knows what works and what doesn't within the legal limits of what he can do.
Did I mention he's my student? Heck of a nice guy and also a blackbelt in Hawaiian Kempo. He says he's used some of the stuff we've shown him and has had good results.
Could you handle this situation? What would you do?




Well, I don't know whether I could have handled it but I do know a couple of escape techniques from bear-hugs (front and rear) and a number of choke submissions or control locks to follow up on that. It's taught early on (along with strangulation and clothing grab escapes) in my JJ syllabus, I'm sure many arts have effective techniques to deal with the situation but they must be trained to work from that position.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#178906 - 08/18/05 09:59 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
If I personally was in that situation and knew her boyfriend was behind or to the side of me. I'd know that they are a team. The instant she made any aggressive motions toward me. I would be prepared engage them both equally. I would have backed / shed out of combat with the female. Attempting to keep both him and her infront of me. Thus avoiding the bear hug from the flank. No fancy techniques just a little common sense.

Always assume everyones against you. Street fights are seldom one on one. Practice sparring against multiple opponents. With the fighters gathered around the sparring area. Allow it so the fighters on the multiple side, can tag in and out. Good mental drill for such scenarios.

Tunnel vision can help you win in the ring, but on the street it can get you killed.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178907 - 08/18/05 10:25 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think your right in a personal street confrontation, but this was a professional situation which dictates that those involved have to obide by a code of conduct. In a world where the person doing the assualting gets more rights than the person being attacked, Law and Security professinoals have to be seen to be justified in their actions. Although reasonable force is subjective, this situation was not an all out fight. The officers had to restrain and contain the situation. This is why it always needs to be handled using teamwork.

I've been involved in and witnessed numerous situations where it has taken two or three of us to throw one person out, simply because we are not allowed to go full out. On the street I'm fairly confident that most of the people I've ever chucked out, I'd probably stand a fair chance of beating in a one on one personal situation, but professionally you can't smash people to pieces and expect to keep your job and probably your liberty.

So while I agree fully with you that on the street always be prepared to go it alone against multiple attackers, from a professional point of view you always want backup.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178908 - 08/18/05 10:40 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Nicely put Gavin. As a retired member of the samr 'trade' as you in the same country i am sure you will agree that whilst the police acknowledge that the job is necessary, they are always only too happy to take a keen interest in any complaint that could be made about our conduct.
like you said all you can do is 'grab n' drag' unless you want to get on first name terms with the local magistrate

As for the idea of not letting the guy get behind you in the first place, most police custody areas require people to be signed in and processed individualy.Hence the guy and woman being in different positions relative to the arresting officer. i would have thought that they could remain cuffed however, particularely in a poorly staffed area, but I guess procedures vary.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#178909 - 08/18/05 10:49 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I fully agree. Bomber jacket, a black tie and being fixed to a single venue make it nice and easy for the Old Bill to find us too!

Fingers crossed so far I've only been interviewed twice, once in the back of squad car and once down the station. Unfortunately some of my mates seem to have cell on a weekly reservation down the nick, but luckily I usually get to enjoy a beer at the end of night! *gav touches some very big pieces of wood*

Nice know there's others from the 'trade' on here too!


Edited by Gavin (08/18/05 10:51 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178910 - 08/18/05 10:51 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I myself am a Protection Officer. I understand where you are comming from.

Although mentally I do consider proffesional situations to be very similar to the street. Especially in prisons where its always the cons vs the guards. Though in a proffesional situation your ability to strike is taken away. Substituted with the ability to restrain only, in most cases at least.

I think that when I say engage the pair, you think I mean attacking the two out right?

What I really mean by that is face them both create distance and do the best to fend them off. Clear out of the situation. Then regroup with current backup or wait for more backup. Officer safety is usually priority one. Unless there is an innocent person directly in harms way.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178911 - 08/18/05 10:54 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I think that when I say engage the pair, you think I mean attacking the two out right?




Sorry, I did misunderstand you. 100% agree!


Edited by Gavin (08/18/05 10:55 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#178912 - 08/18/05 10:59 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Well engage is a very vauge term. I should have been more specific in the first place. My bad.

_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#178913 - 08/18/05 12:56 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
That is why I posted that specific technique.
An elbow to the stomach/xyphoid(solar plexis) is easy to defend againstIN COURT On camera it doesn't look like a "strike" not like a punch/kick would.
plus the technique is very effective and it is easy to create space once the hold is broken.
I have heard of other techniques like grabbing the smallest finger and twisting it which could lead to a broken finger and lawsuits.or headbutts (broken nose )same result.
some LEO's I've met have had very minnimal training(basic arm bar,"chicken wing" wrist lock,and basic hand cuffung techniques. they are seldom taught off balancing manuvers which is a key eliment to subduing a subject.
I think I'm rambling at this point.

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#178914 - 08/18/05 02:05 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: otobeawanker]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Obeonewanker I think that was a slick move efficent and effortless, it would have solved the bearhug incident and given the female officer a chance to clear her head and join in the conflict. Nice observent move.

I also agree with the Kempo Man Gavin that LEO can't go full out and there is strength in numbers, bring it back to Onebeones slick move instead of three people in front of the female officer all of a sudden its two on two, if she gets her butt up front.

Great analogy guys! We are Love seat Quarter Backing the hell out of this one.


Edited by Neko456 (08/18/05 02:06 PM)

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