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#178895 - 08/17/05 12:59 AM Self defense situation
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Last friday my student who is a jailer was involved in more altercations. He had a couple who were arrested and brought to the jail. The girl attacked him,he was holding her off when her boyfriend bearhugged him. The female deputy was apparently unsure of what to do and there was noone else there. He managed to throw the girl to the side and slam the guy into submission breaking his ribs. The female deputy finally subdued the girl.
This kind of thing happens to him alot,he knows what works and what doesn't within the legal limits of what he can do.
Did I mention he's my student? Heck of a nice guy and also a blackbelt in Hawaiian Kempo. He says he's used some of the stuff we've shown him and has had good results.
Could you handle this situation? What would you do?
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

#178896 - 08/17/05 03:13 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Belnick Offline

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1165

Could you handle this situation? What would you do?

if I could handle it?, nope, would break too many laws and get fired and most likely be prosecuted

on how about I would do it I am not sure, too many possibilities, but at one point I would prolly use the batong(well they "were" two
the only one being punished for posting more than one post in 60 minutes

#178897 - 08/17/05 03:16 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Chanters Offline

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I don't envy your students job! I don't think I could say I could or couldn't handle the situation as it's something I have never experienced before so wouldn't really know what to expect. Granted we practice how to get out of bearhugs etc but it's a whole lot different in a real situation where you have to restrain someone and not have the opportunity to escape. As for what I would do, I'd make sure that female deputy gets some proper training to deal with situations like this should they ever arise again. Or maybe make sure there is at least more than 1 person at hand when every new prison inmate enters. I'm glad his training has helped him so much.

#178898 - 08/17/05 03:24 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Wow, tricky one this as it involves what many guys, no matter what their training, would find difficult- force against a woman.

Everyone will have a different mental image of the scenario, so interpretations will vary, and the bearhug offers a couple of variables, namely, did it clamp down the arms, or were they free due to dealing with the woman?

Arms free: Use them as a fence for distancing the woman, as the opertunity arose, using back elbows, groin grab and digit manipulation to break the mans hold on me.
Legs are pushing off walls/solid objects to off-balance the man, raking shins, stomping feet and again kicked in the air to distance female.
I would attempt to use the back of my head to butt the guy, though this would probably be expected and avoided.
All the time using my voice to snap my colleague out of her panick, to assist with the female as priority one, then if/when successfull, and if necessary, assist with man (also to hit the panick button for more manpower).

Arms inside the bearhug: I would find this easier to be honest. I am quite wide so the addition of the arms will make a 'lock' on the hug more difficult for most people (my old instructor used to have great difficulty performing ogoshi throws on me- just couldnt get his arm round me )
legs I am using more as a fence than a weapon now, and using the power in my upper body to dislodge the man, from here i may still get in a position for groin strike/grab, and am also looking for the headbutt.
Voice as above.

Reasoning for assistant focusing on woman.
1. I know what the guy is capable of from a bearhug- not a lot. He is commited to it and can cause no further trouble outside this action.The damage to me is limited by this action.The woman on the other hand is free to do all sorts of nasty things.
2. In subduing the woman, his reaction may well be to release his grip and go to her assistance, if so I am free and its miller time
3. Quite often in mixed sex confrontations like this, it is the female that 'eggs on' the man, who fights harder out of a sense of bravado. Quell the motivation for the attack, weaken the resolve of the attack.

Well thats it. How did I do Coach? Can I start on Saturday
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#178899 - 08/17/05 03:33 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Cord]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
That's pretty good Cord.

I don't know all the specific details as I wasn't there. He didn't have much problem with roughing up the girl to get her under control. I don't know how big the guy was,but Kevin(my student) is 6' 280lb approximately. I wouldn't hesitate to treat the woman like a man if I had to.
I'll ash him more specifics tomorrow.I'd like to find out how exactly he went from being bearhugged to slamming the guy.
If in a bearhug I would drop my weight,try and step out to get him off balance and then use strikes or reach under for a leg.
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

#178900 - 08/17/05 06:00 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
If I'm reading this right then the guy wasn't the imeadiate threat in this particular situation (he was busy bear hugging your student) it was the girlfriend. His female colleague should most definately have placed herself between her restrained colleague and the threatening girlfriend and gone in with the baton to subdue the girlfriend, then turned to the boyfriend with the baton. Having said that, I don't know what the legal constraints of using the Baton are.

Security and Law enforcement is a team game and it definately sounds like the female deputy was the weak link in the chain. Obviously its really is easy to comment without being there, but it sounds like a reality training issue to me.

Dealing with irrate females is probably the worst situation you could deal with being a male. I had a situation last year working a bar showing a Soccer match, where a women easily in her fortys randomly attacked a table of 5 guys. My colleague jumped between her and the poor guys and I grabbed both her hands from behind. She then tried to bite my arm so I had to stick her in a full nelson and wobble my way to the door, she was back heeling me all the way! We have to be so careful, because if we are percieved to be going to hard on a girl, you'll usually get a bar full of guys jumping on you. Give me a guy to deal with any day of the week!!!!

Edited by Gavin (08/17/05 06:04 AM)
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#178901 - 08/17/05 10:56 AM Re: Self defense situation [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Yes dealing with women in the public eye is a tough issue it can insight a riot/public oppinon & make matters worse. Inside the confindes of a jail holding station with only 4 people present is a little different. Usually a woman that resisits or acts aggressively is treated like any attacker, maybe not punched but slammed.

Your student handled the situation effectively the only thing I'd add is he should have asked his stalemated female partner to call for backup. There is never too many Us, against them, No. 1 rule in Law Eenforcement.

He should have advised his partner what he wanted her to do. Like shoved the woman (after taking her breath with a tiger claw to throat and palm strike/push to the solar plex) to her knees saying "Hand cuff this B/ In mean woman, being PC". And handled the guy like he did (being in a bear hug is not a big problem, U know were his hands are. For few a seconds unless he starts to lift or sqeeze U, hundreds of ways to skin a cat). He skinned him nicely and nobody really got hurt badlly.

As mentioned a baton or assistance would have been nice. There are advantages and disadvantages in having a female officer as a partner.

#178902 - 08/17/05 12:07 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
ChangLab Offline

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I am suprised that Sanchen is the only one who suggested dropping his weight and using strikes/ leg grap to get out of a "bear hug".
I was recently taught to "puff up(flex arms and inhale)
than simultanoiusly, exhale relax raise arms in a "chicken wing motion" drop your weight and take a large step to the right(drop to a wide horse stance), then elbow to the midsection . or in my case I'm short so I useually end up with a good elbow to the hip which is better to me.
I have practiced this with large people(6'6",275 lbs,36" waiste)even when they pick me up off my feet it works and is very quick.
as for the female she'd probably want my partner to deal with her as I wouldn't hesitate to take her down like I would a male.

#178903 - 08/17/05 05:30 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: ChangLab]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Seiunchin kata bunkai teaches what you described very effectively for dealing with a rear bearhug.
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

#178904 - 08/17/05 07:03 PM Re: Self defense situation [Re: SANCHIN31]
batterup Offline

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 52
what martial art is he in?

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