".... We're not talking about conveying meaning now, we're talking about transmitting knowledge and conveying understanding...."

Not quite... at least not from my end. I am not so much talking about "transmitting" as in reducing interference. To push the radio analogy , I can't say that I KNOW that people hear my signal, though I can up the power as much as I can. What I might do, though is transmitt on a freq that is less suceptible to sun-spot interference and thereby have less static to deal with. In this way any person listening will hear my signal as clear as I am able to make it. Same thing in discussing Kata. I think we need to learn how to "tune" the discussion of a kata to either make the most OF the cultural underpinnings or find a way to tune out their interference as much as possible. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Keyboard-Fu (why did I bother to capitalize that??) like I was saying, keyboard-fu is all literacy and liberal art...it says nothing of the person's martial art. For example, I may have some cyber skills but my karate blows. It says 'Veteran' next to my user name, but veteran of what? nonsensical silly posting and google searching?

Back to what G2BH was saying, I'm sure I'm part of that sunspot interference, but people with different filters won't hear it as all noise.

The thing that seems strange to me about this topic is why nobody has mentioned the difference between concept and meaning. someone could teach concepts with whatever pure non-culture bent transmission you can think of, but meaning of the concepts come from the individual receiving and connecting them.
"You can lead a horse to water, but not make them drink it." I think is the analogy.

just another thought for flogging.

I don't think you can completely eliminate the noise and interference - to borrow your analogy.

Kintama raises a good point about teaching "concepts". The problem is, while the "concept" approach is good in theory, it is nonetheless colored by cultural and societal bias.

Take "spirituality" as a "concept".... that's a good example.

oh yeah. I didn't think of it that way...you're right. damn...thought I had it nailed.

All of my theories seem to work with ease...it's getting the applications working that is the hard part.

In that regard, kata's are simply theories which need to be worked.

Sigh...if I wipe my mind clean it may make for better transmission...of whatever...concepts. At this point, I am signing up for the mind to mind transmission.

GTBH: it is all about finding the right teacher/students. Then language won't be a problem.

Buddha twirls a flower. Kasyapa smiles and receives the robe and alms bowl.

"...GTBH: it is all about finding the right teacher/students. Then language won't be a problem...."

Yes, but short of everyone here perfecting their "Vulcan Mind-meld" we are still a range of individuals who are working to help each other along a very challenging path.
As many times as I have read conflicting posts in which person was sure they understood what the other was saying and failed miserably, I wonder how on Earth we can discuss something as sophisticated as Forms without developing a kind of neutral vocabulary that helps us hear the least bias representation of what is being communicated. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

My wife talks a lot. Half the time I don't really listen to what she's saying. And when I do, I can't make head or tail of what she's saying. She seems to skirt around the topic a lot, and trail off on various tangents, so it's hard to keep track of what she is saying half the time. Which is probably the reason I don't listen half the time.

And then she expects me to "know" what she's trying to say.

E.g.
She: I told you that last week...
Me: No you didn't...
She: You never listen to me when I talk....
Me: Yes, dear...
She: BTW, yesterday I ran into so and so...blah blah blah...
Me: Uh huh...
She: blah blah blah
She: blah blah blah blah
...(many minutes later)
Me: And the point to all of this is...?
She: Have you been listening to a word I said...????
Me: Obviously not....
She: Anyway, I told you last week that this was on for this weekend...
Me: Hang on, what has the preceeding got to do with what happened last week?
She: Oh, I give up... you're not listening to me...
Me:

Perception filters are one thing. Communication filters are another thing.

To borrow an example of communication using MBTI, as you may be aware, intuition and sensing are on opposite ends of one of the MBTI dimensions. Without attempting to stereotype people, whenever you have 2 people who are diametrically opposed in MBTI terms, you will tend to get cross-communication issues.

Add to this fundamental difference in personalities, the mix of cultural background, societal influences, baggage of experience, and other communication filters, is it any wonder that we find it difficult to get our message across, let alone, receive the other person's message clearly?

Verbal (and by extension, written) communication is one thing. Visual and kinesthetic (i.e. non-verbal) communication is another thing. It takes an extremely intuitive and sensate person to be able to discern the subtle nuances of all communication modalities without engaging their perception filters. Likewise, it takes great communication skills to be able to convey meaning and feeling thru all modalities (like great acting for example).

In essense, a "neutral vocabulary" (a la Esperanto) isn't going to solve the problem of how to communicate movement forms (i.e. kata, dance, acting). The "language" issue is minor compared to the larger issue of communication in general.

*goes back to have heart-to-heart, non-verbal communication with wife*

".....Add to this fundamental difference in personalities, the mix of cultural background, societal influences, baggage of experience, and other communication filters, is it any wonder that we find it difficult to get our message across, let alone, receive the other person's message clearly?...."

Dear Eyrie:

100% correct! I had not wnated to step across that line as it sorta opens a whole 'nuther can o' worms. I had been working to keep this in terms of communication filters but you are absolutely right. There is a whole other part of how a person wants to percieve a communication as well. I have had more than a few interactions with folks who, no matter how "static-free" I might strive to make a communication, will only hear what I might express in a particular way. For instance, were we discussing a Japanese sword form, no matter how objective I might strive to be, the person at the other end will only "hear" in terms of Japanese application or culture being the only acceptable way to consider the form. A more common example might be the continual need for MMA people to view MA solely in terms of Physical Education, perhaps devoid of philosophical or ethical underpinnings. In this way I am thinking it makes no difference how pure I may communicate if a person only wants to hear what is said in a single way. Is this what you are meaning?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Why are we still belaboring this!

We are not tryin to teach the Yanomammo advanced geometry and engineering!

The initial supposition is that we are CONVERSING, on the TELEPHONE, to a FRIEND, in a NEIGHBORING STATE.

I certainly don't want to belittle all the rhetoric about cultural norms, ethnocentricity or or any other barriers to communication, but we are a little off the beaten path here.

This appears to have become an exercise in showing of just how much we think we know sociology,anthropology and philosophical subtext, and less about communicating.

As evidenced by the capitalized words above, there is already common ground represented. If you can not communicate an esoteric concept with this particular person, then you are moron (Not you Bruce. I often appreciate you posts. I mean YOU in general) or the person that you are communicating with is a moron.

If someone is my friend, we have some things in common and, through shared experiences have come to understand one another on some level even if they are not a martial artist.

If I can talk to him on the phone, then he knows what a phone is and how to use it. Chances are he has seen a TV, VCR/DVD, a computer, movies, magazines etc.

If he lives a state over, even if for a limited time, then he understands some basic rules, customs, and procedures in society. He probaly speaks my language or a common language is shared between us, or we never would have been able to get to know one another well enough to be friends.

Use your heads. Use technology. Provide proper foundations and we can communicate almost any idea to anyone in the world. Regardless of ethnicity,culture,religion,etc.

Come on people! We are not trying to teach Martians to knit mittens.

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