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#178771 - 08/17/05 10:04 AM dumb and dumber [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
How could I possibly make you feel dumb? I am pretty honest about my complete ignorance in MA, and my wackiness as well. You take offense at the term 'too cerebral' when none was intended. But I don't think that you really disagree...that conversations that focus on the nature and limits of communication don't really have a place on a board that likes to keep conversations 'grounded' in technique.


Edited by harlan (08/17/05 10:10 AM)

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#178772 - 08/17/05 10:24 AM Re: dumb and dumber [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Maybe I did misinterpret your use of "too cerebral" and if so I apologize. But this is not too cerebral, Page and I both answered the question with logic, it wasn't that hard.

This isn't the Middle Ages, we have technologies and abilities that can help in a situation such as this to avoid confusion.
Or you can talk to a person who's not a complete moron and would not make the assumptions Bruce assumes everybody would.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#178773 - 08/17/05 10:25 AM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: BuDoc]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear BuDoc:

".....Video tape and Fed-Ex.

No misunderstandings. Simple and to the point. Everyone on the same page....."

The very reason I did not use the solution you mentioned was that it seems to buy into the problem that I am working to address. Consider this for a second, 'kay? If we use a video tape as a common reference point, we are now tied to or heavily influenced by the manner in which the person making the tape represents the movement.

There is a posture I am working on from a Korean Hyung. Probably everyone here has seen this posture. I can certainly take bandwidth to describe the posture and its place in the hyung including the movements before and after. I can also find that posture in a Chinese form, or an Okinawan form, or a Japanese form, maybe even in the original Indian arts. But if I use one or more of those arts to talk about a movement, don't I run the risk of limiting the discussion to the interpretations people have applied to the movement as used in those arts?

Let me put this another way. If I am doing an Okinawan kata and watch a movement, there are times when, with my Hapkido background I can see a grappling or locking interpretation that the Okinawan practitioner might not see. This is the sort of open-minded consideration I am talking about. And since I can't educate the entire world to examine movement through Hapkido eyes, I am wondering if there is a way to consider body movement that is less skewed towards one kind of interpretation of another. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/17/05 10:27 AM)

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#178774 - 08/17/05 10:50 AM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: glad2bhere]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Q. How does one describe a ballet, and the subtle differences in technique and 'interpretation' between Gudonov and Nureyev to a 'break' dancer? A. There has to be a common, and agreed upon 'language'. I don't think that it is necessary to 'break' technique from the cultural context (the martial arts version of The Cultural Revolution...would that be MMA?) in order to have a meaningful exchange of ideas. But there will always be the question as to how much information is 'filtered' in the process.

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#178775 - 08/17/05 11:17 AM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Bruce -

I do think you are over-intellectualizing things a bit here. Human nature is to view things through the filter of their respective experiences.

Will they view it with their cultural or intellectual bias? Yes. At first. However, with a proper good faith explanation on your part and some reasonable intelligence on theirs, they should understand just fine what you mean.

Happens all the time.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#178776 - 08/17/05 01:02 PM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: harlan]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Harlan:

".... A. There has to be a common, and agreed upon 'language'...."

Exactly! What I see is that when discussing forms and applications the two most commonly agreed-upon "languages" are Chinese and Japanese. My thought is that this is because these are the two languages that have been most heavily translated into English and become the most commonly used resources for examining applications or interpretations. But Capoeira, and the arts of Indonesia, the Phillipines, and Southeast Asia also have forms. Are we to examine these arts in terms of how biomechanics are interpreted in Chinese and Japanese forms? For instance, the Capoeira folks have any number of turning kicks. These kicks SEEM like the Korean Spin-kicks. Do we then begin to speak in terms of how the Koreans use their feet to discuss how a Brazilian master uses HIS feet? Or how about the Korean arts? There are similarities to Japanese traditions and yet differences. Do we then discuss the Korean material as it is interpreted by Japanese practitioners? Look what happened when the Okinawan material went to Japan. Same thing, right? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#178777 - 08/17/05 01:18 PM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: glad2bhere]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
How about the world language of business...English?

The term 'language' also encompasses the known semantical and cultural attributes. So, yes...if you elect to speak with a peer on some African dance movement, using an Asian term...you deliberately 'color' the information that you feed the other person. In other words, the further you get from simple description, the more 'loaded' the conversation.

The body can only move so many ways...but interpretation is endlessly varied. If one wants to avoid making certain comparisons...simply resort to an agreed upon language based on simple body movement. The trick is getting everybody to agree!


Edited by harlan (08/17/05 01:20 PM)

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#178778 - 08/17/05 01:46 PM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
all of the cognitive jargon (some of which I do happen to understand) means communication and transmission of physical knowledge...kata serves this purpose but it was not designed to be virtually transmitted but rather a direct in-person interaction.
To solve this, we have to look for a combination of technology and exact unambiguous language. until we have 3d holographic video tech, the best that can be done is via real-time video conferencing. or the lower-tech approach is transporting yourself on location...here on Earth, we have car,train and plane.
There is your answer for now. another 20 years the answer will be different.

For the scholars who have read a few books and now feel they can hang with the experts... then hang with the experts and let us know (in laymans terms of course) what you've found out. It's pretty easy to come on to an unrelated forum and infer...'haha I know this stuff and you don't'.
Why don't we ever hear Budoc talking shop on the forum? because he is socialy well-adjusted and is aware of his audience, speaks accordingly and doesn't need the ego-trip of being able to talk over everyones head. There's the real 'identity crisis' which should be concentrated on.

Just in case I've got it all wrong, read up on the advancements in 'virtual learning'. It is highly technical field and touches on a diverse set of diciplines...the field asks the simple question "how do I teach and learn over great distances."

[edit] even though I replied to you Harlan, I was addressing anyone to who it applies.

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#178779 - 08/17/05 01:52 PM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yup...language has its limitations...can't beat one to one learning. (Shut up and train! )

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#178780 - 08/18/05 02:08 AM Re: "Identity Crisis" [Re: harlan]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Thanks, Harlan.

BTW: When you (personally) examine a form, do you always use the culture from which that form originates as a frame of reference, or do you tend to examine it in terms of the art in which you train? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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