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#178200 - 08/15/05 05:18 AM Karate conditioning
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
We've talked about it,so let's get the opinions out on the table. What is karate conditioning to you?
I've got conditioning from knuckle pushups on the road,punching and kicking the heavy bag. I've also broken concrete blocks and boards which required a little conditioning of my hands,but more technique.
Should our knuckles be protruding calouses? I don't think so. I think proper conditioning comes with proper karate.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#178201 - 08/15/05 05:58 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
IMO this is a very important part of ones training, i do the following -

makiwara, 3 times a week at home
heavy bag, 2 times a week at the dojo
specific basic strength training, 2 times a week at home
endurance routine, 2 times a week at home

in class we do some forearm pounding on occasion.

To me its all part of pactical karate training and I enjoy this aspect along side my technical training.

When I train with someone who doesnt do any conditioning it is fairly obvious.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#178202 - 08/15/05 07:09 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Running, yes.

Punching and kicking the bag, yes.

Hitting the abs with a medicine ball is good too.

But caloused knuckles? No way. Quite frankly, I fail to understand this concept of conditioning the hands.

The biggest risk to your hands in a fight is dislocating the knuckles, breaking the hand or some other such injury. I fail to see where any of the so-called hand conditioning techniques helps prevent either of those injuries. I've yet to hear one legitimate explaination of how slamming your hands into a makiwara board or anything else is of benefit to you.

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#178203 - 08/15/05 07:15 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
first of all the callouses on the hands are a sign of wrong training.
secondly conditioning should be done to all body parts. In china for instance there are masters that train their faces to absorb punches.
thirdly what u use after the conditioning process is more important the the training in itself, important to prevent and adapt the body (adaptogen)
The masters that i know (some pretty known) do not have sign whatsoever of callouses.
Why people do not condition their body (while in very old books is written to do) making their karate ineffective?? Because it is a very lenghty process, it requires consistency, correct information, correct liniments and willingness to experience pain in the process of adaptation.
In one of its books Prof Draeger warned that no matter how good is a techniques if there is not a proper conditioning training
Gambatte


Edited by Deltaforce69 (08/15/05 07:22 AM)

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#178204 - 08/15/05 07:25 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: BigRod]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Big Rod,

You said -

'The biggest risk to your hands in a fight is dislocating the knuckles, breaking the hand or some other such injury. I fail to see where any of the so-called hand conditioning techniques helps prevent either of those injuries. I've yet to hear one legitimate explaination of how slamming your hands into a makiwara board or anything else is of benefit to you.'

Ok well lets change that, I started makiwara training (in addition to heavy bag) over a year ago and i now have considerably stronger hands when punching, from fist formation through to wrist strength on impact (including 'sharper knuckles'). I dont have
particulary caloused knuckles as I trian a well padded, leather target with a proper makiwara post (it has give), however it is fair to say my front 2 knuckles seem to be more solid, difficult to explain.

Obviously this is just my expieirence, however it is very real, I have no reason to mislead anyone. i do follow the advise of a practioner who has been training for more than 30 years with the makiwara, his instructor proberly for 50 years plus! They have no problems and i trust their expierience. it doesnt replace the heavy bag but it does compliment it superbly.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#178205 - 08/15/05 07:44 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: BigRod]
makiwaraman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 50
Loc: Guildford, Surrey,UK

Quote:

I've yet to hear one legitimate explaination of how slamming your hands into a makiwara board or anything else is of benefit to you.






The most popular way of training with the seiken is to make use of a makiwara, a thick post covered with rice straw. The makiwara also, incidentally, may be used in strengthening the sword hand (shutō), the elbows and the knees. I think I am in no way exaggerating when I say that practice with the makiwara is the keystone in the creation of strong weapons.

Gichin Funakoshi
Karate-Dō My way of life

Big Rod have you ever used a proper makiwara.
regards maki
_________________________
We are necessarily imperfect and therefore always in a state of growth.

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#178206 - 08/15/05 04:01 PM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I do knuckle push ups on just about any surface. I don't have big calouses on my hands accept for my palms from doing pull ups. I hit my heavy bag I a lot use thin gloves sometimes but most of the time I don't. I do forearm pounding as well with a partner not a conditioning hammer. I feel that medium contact sparring is the best conditioning.

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#178207 - 08/15/05 09:01 PM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I thought you also trained al fresco, in all weather. Surely that counts toward conditioning.
Personally, I do knuckle push ups, heavy bag for hands, knees, elbows, feet and head, (yes I practice head butting) makiwara for hands, (never really thought of using it for elbows etc.) and if I'm training with a partner, we punch hell out of each others abs while doing sit ups.
I want my body ready for when it needs to be but I don't want to scar myself. My hands are particularly important to me because I also play guitar and wouldn't want to impede that with busted up knuckles and arthritis. I done enough damage to them when I was younger.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#178208 - 08/15/05 11:25 PM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
150 Crunches.
Charts 1&2.
Bag work,Especially with whip kicks.
kata.
Punch box of sand,Then makiwara.
Work with the Chiishi
Half hour of cardio.
Bunkai.
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

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#178209 - 08/16/05 12:37 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: McSensei]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

I thought you also trained al fresco, in all weather. Surely that counts toward conditioning.





Yes,I suppose it does toughen the body more.

Quote:

if I'm training with a partner, we punch hell out of each others abs while doing sit ups.





We do this as well.(don't tell steyr scout )

Also 'shime' when doing sanchin is good conditioning.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#178210 - 08/16/05 01:18 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
shihan_chris Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 64
Do very many of you include conditioning your shins in your conditioning regimen.

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#178211 - 08/16/05 01:32 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: shihan_chris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chris,

Depends on what you mean by conditioning. Generally, if you do a lot of shin kicks to pads and heavy bags and also spar moderately using shin blocks and kicks, over time you will accustom your shins to taking the abuse necessary to impact hard for shin strikes and to be able to take some forceful blows on the shin.

The offshoot of all this training is to also learn small adjustments of the hip and the shin when sparring to not take the full impact of any one technique. You will be able to jam or dissipate some of the power of kicks after awhile...but only after practicing these things.

Basically, if you train long enough...you condition the shins...if your style is predisposed to shin kicks as mine is.

However, let me warn you about the stupidity others will present about banging your shins on hard surfaces or thumping your shins with a hammmer. I have heard of and even done, when younger, using dowels to roll on the shins to desentize them a bit.

However, I don't know if this worked and stopped it when I used to train for a short while with some fellas who trained Muay Thai in Thailand. Basically they said pad work and drills.

Don't risk injury if you are unsure what you are doing and go with competent instruction. Don't believe all you hear about training Muay Thai either for shin conditioning.

-B

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#178212 - 08/16/05 01:44 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: butterfly]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Good post Brad. I don't intentionally condition anything for the sake of conditioning,I think it just happens with good training. I've banged shins with alot of people for a long time in sparring,that coupled with bag work has left my shins somewhat conditioned. I remember a couple of years ago when I was stationed in Ft.Sill,Ok. I had an MP friend who banged me on the shin with his nightstick and I didn't feel it much. We were both sitting there goofing off,he couldn't believe it. Never knew it myself until then.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#178213 - 08/16/05 03:09 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
To add to the list, blocking drills with shinai. Really good conditioning for the forearms and hands.

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#178214 - 08/16/05 10:25 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
from my experience, as far as hand conditioning, I was starting to get leather knuckles until I changed only 1 aspect of training...from full-twist to vertical punch makiwara.

knuckle pushups for wrist and arm strengthening, fingertip pushups for hand/digits. vertical punch and ridgehand makiwara. open hand strikes and 3/4 punch on bag.

I'm currently experimenting with constructing a sage-makiwara (hanging makiwara). I'll start a thread if I find anything interesting about it along the way. I know 1 benefit will be that it will generate less noise, which is my motivation for looking into it since it will be in the basement.

also on my todo list are:
Makiage kigu - wrist roller (forearm)
and
Yari bako - bucket o' beans. (grip)

The wrist roller shouldn't be a problem to construct. anyone know where I can get the beans?

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#178215 - 08/16/05 11:39 AM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: Kintama]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Kintama,

If you havent been to this site already, take a look some real nice clips on hojo undo, especiall the hanging makiwara.

www.okinawakaratedo.com

The whole sites worth looking over, but if you go to multi media and then the dojo training clip you can see a typical hanging makiwara workout.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#178216 - 08/16/05 01:58 PM Re: Karate conditioning [Re: shoshinkan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
that was a very cool vid of a suspended makiwara, thanks!

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