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#177123 - 08/23/05 03:22 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

Same thing with the Guillotene in Judo. It wasn't taught to me at all in my Judo school during the entire 3 months I was there.




You studied judo for a whole 3 months and they didn't show you the guillotene? I'm not a grappler but 3 months is nothing in learning an art and you can't expect to scrape the surface in judo in 3 months. My boyfriend has been practicing judo for a total of about 4 years and hasn't learned all the techniques. They try numerous techniques and the ones they feel most comfortable with they continually develop and work on. He's does a mean osoto gari!

In aikido the lower grades like myself will practice whatever technique we're asked to do. Sometimes the dan grades are told to do a more advanced variation or a different, more advanced technique. I watch them and know if I were to try that I could seriously risk injuring either myself or uke. I need to grasp the basics of certain techniques before I can go round throwing people using more advanced ones, for my own and others safety.

Quote:

Another example. The karate school I used to attend, my instructor said you can't learn anything about swords until you get to Black Belt. But yet I could've gone and joined a local Kendo club and started learning everything I wanted to know about swords from day one.




That maybe because kendo is a sword art and it would be pretty much useless if they didn't let you practice with a sword.

Quote:

My point of all this is these "limitations" are somewhat artificial, created by individual instructors or some tradition being carried on for whatever reason.




I don't think it's necessarily tradition or that they are limitations. If you were an instructor and you personally believed that teaching someone who hadn't been practicing long a technique which could potentially harm or injure someone, would you feel comfortable going ahead and teaching them?

Quote:

What you can learn and when is completely subjective.



I agree. But again the instructors have the knowledge and experience in teaching people their art and in most cases know what you are capable of.

Sorry, I feel I've hijacked this thread as we've drifted from the necklock discussion. BigRod I kind of agree and appreciate with what you're saying but I have experienced different situations to what you have said and feel I must defend my sensei's/instructors judgement because I know they are only acting to prevent possibly harm or injury and assisting me in building up my foundation to which I will soon be able to learn the more advanced techniques.
_________________________
Chanters

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#177124 - 08/23/05 10:19 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Chanters]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:

I'm not a grappler but 3 months is nothing in learning an art and you can't expect to scrape the surface in judo in 3 months




You zoomed in on the 3 months and not the point. Or perhaps I did a poor job of expressing my point. At any rate, Judo Ne-Waza apparently doesn't cover the Guillotene until much later in their syllabus. BJJ covers it immediately.

Why the difference? Safety? One could argue that, but BJJ people (and many others) train this technique all the time, without injury. This, IMO, places this situation into the arbitrary, subjective grey area that I mentioned before.

Same thing with my other example, the sword. In one style it's too dangerous to train the sword until you get to black belt, but I can go take Kendo immediately at a different school? Another Safety issue? No, not all. Just another case of an artificial limitation.

I've been in several arts, trained with many people, for a long time. I can identify the difference between legimate safety concerns and artificial limitations.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

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#177125 - 10/02/05 07:25 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
Mtripp Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 25
Well, all I can say, again, is those who worked with me at the spirit of the eagle camp for the "no-gi" sessions got the point that twisting the neck is serious stuff and has no place in randori or shiai. The risk is simply too great. They all got a few twinges, and let me know they got the point. Perhaps some of you will make your way to camp and I can show you what I mean.

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#177126 - 10/03/05 09:05 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Mtripp]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

twisting the neck is serious stuff




I just cringe at the thought!
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Chanters

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#177127 - 10/03/05 07:21 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Mtripp]
Mtripp Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 25
More to the point of the question...

IMHO

NO choke that goes against the windpipe should be allowed in a sport. That is the context, sport. If you have technique, then get a choke that attacks the blood not the windpipe.

Now, MMA, with ADULTS, is another issue. I just feel you can get your submissions without risking the injury in a sporting event.

Now, let see how much stuff that stirs up.....

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#177128 - 02/02/06 05:43 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Mtripp]
Hoisan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 2
Never try a necklock without proper training! There was a guy who tried this once and actually tore his opponent's head of. We heard him yell out "watch my wicked neck scarf" and then there was a ripping sound followed by a brief scream. The opponent's head rolled across the mat, passing right by my foot. I still have nightmares about it.

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#177129 - 02/02/06 09:48 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Hoisan]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
*Sniff sniff*
I sense a troll nearby. . .

Ripping a person's head off? Bah! Have you been playing Mortal Kombat again?

I got an idea! Now let the mod/admin rip YOUR head off, here and now.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#177130 - 02/06/06 12:20 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Taison]
Hoisan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 2
Quote:

*Sniff sniff*
I sense a troll nearby. . .

-Taison out




Post deleted-

First warning. Stay on topic and drop the insults.

Fletch1


Edited by Fletch1 (02/06/06 07:12 PM)

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#177131 - 02/06/06 09:35 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Hoisan]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Stay on topic dude.

It's near to impossible, possible, yes, but near to impossible to actually rip a man's head off. Ah, the neck, throat and all that area that joins the head with the body is quite a strong "part". You can twist it to break the neck and kill the person but I pulling somebody's head off with an upward force is quite difficult if you don't have inhuman power like that of a bear.

Have you ever seen anyone hanged before? Well, no many heads falls off do they? Now, have you ever seen anyone got beaheaded by the guillotine[the frence one]? Sometimes it takes 2-4 chops to get the head off. Ever read about the English executions during the medieval ages where they chop the head off with an axe? Took 1-5 chops to get off.

The neck is a very strong part of the body and it will require more than just technique to rip someone's head off. If it was as easy as you said in your 'troll' post, wouldn't many UFC fighters be a head less these days?

My suggestion troll, get a life.

Back to topic.
Those dislocation neck locks, I learnt them the 3rd day of class. I don't see them as too dangerous but, in the hands of a bunch of teenagers without supervision. Ouch!

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#177132 - 02/07/06 07:51 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi big Rod.

I think the effects of any neck crank is down to comparisons.

Put on a standing arm lock.

Hold the wrist
Use the opposite palm on the opponnents elbow
It hurts.
Force them to the ground.

Put the same arm lock on.
Force them to the ground and then use the knee as a pushing force on the elbow its breakage time.

The same with neck cranks. It depends where the weight /force is coming from.

Poss one of the reasons why techniques were hidden in Kata.

Shouldnt be taught to just anybody.

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