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#177103 - 08/10/05 09:47 AM Judo Dislocation Necklocks
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
This is an interesting page. The techniques shown are basically the can opener (from the mount), the guillotene from standing and the gaurd, a gaurd pass, and a variation of kesa-gatame (scarf hold).

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

These things are all taught from day one in BJJ and sub wrestling. I've been doing them forever and have yet to see any serious or even minor injuries from these moves.

Anyway, heres the link:

http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm

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#177104 - 08/10/05 09:51 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
These appear to be dislocations rather than chokes. I can understand how they would be dangerous.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (08/10/05 09:52 AM)
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#177105 - 08/10/05 10:57 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Leo_E_49]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I suppose if you have someone of significant size and strength do this to a smaller person you have potential for injury, but the worst I've ever come away with is muscle soreness, and all of those things have been done to me many times over.

I think you need to excercise some caution, like making sure your partner doesn't have any neck/spine injuries before you attempt this stuff, but the techniques aren't that dangerous.

I think it's strange how this author recommends not teaching this to anyone below a brown belt, but BJJ/MMA schools teach this to beginners all the time.

TOMOE-HISHIGI is nothing more than a gaurd pass and is refered to as "stacking"

TATE-HISHIGI, GYAKU-HISHIGI are guillotene chokes, not dislocations.

KUBI-HISHIGI, OSAE-HISHIGI are neck cranks.

Quite frankly, once you develop a small degree of flexibility in your neck, these moves are nothing but annoying. Minus the chokes, that is.

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#177106 - 08/10/05 11:03 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Bigrod, your so use to doing this stuff have you forgotten how dangerous it really is? what about the kids and dopes that just scan over this material and decide they want to try these techniques the next time all the guys get together in the back yard. Yeah, someone could get real hurt, the author is correct. There is a house near my dojo where the kids have a "WWF Style" ring set up in their back yard and they emulate the moves that they see on TV, many times I have stopped and watched them do their flying body slams and pile drivers, (they look pretty good too). Now I'm almost positive that they never had any pros show them any of these moves except for what they have seen on videos and TV. It's only a matter of time until someone is hurt, although they look like they are having one hell of a time playing pro wrestlers!


Edited by schanne (08/10/05 11:05 AM)

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#177107 - 08/10/05 01:51 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: schanne]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Shanne, those kids are stupid and there are a lot of them out there. They are going to get hurt and they will only have themselves to get blamed. They can't blame WWE or TV or movies ... they chose to do that stuff so you get what you get.

The techniques on that linked page, many of us have done these and have had no serious injuries. The worst I can think is a neck crank that I received. And in training you tap when you are in discomfort. If some kids want to do this without trained supervision ... sure they could get hurt ... but then again they get what they deserve.

It's no difference then riding a motorcycle. The thing is dangerous as hell ... and I know as I ride a crotch rocket. But I took training from qualified instructors and plan to take an advanced course next year. I could have been stupid like many of these kids who get them and have no clue ... and then they end up crashing or dead. Yes it could happen to me too ... but I know the limits ... they don't necessarily ... and I'll be more inclined to "tap out" before I feel I'm endangered.

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#177108 - 08/10/05 01:58 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Dereck]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Wonder where the parents are, I have to laugh out loud because the the one day when I stopped to watch them they had a ladder on the mat they were jumping from and one kid looked like he was doing a belly flop one the other boy, yeah they hit each other with chairs too!!??
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#177109 - 08/10/05 02:40 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: schanne]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Crazy stuff. When I was a kid I mimiced The Lone Ranger or Spiderman ... but I'm not shooting people or thinking I can spin webs or jump from building to building. Must be all of the perservatives or chemicals in the food we eat now that makes them crazy.

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#177110 - 08/10/05 07:28 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Dereck]
Mtripp Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 25
You need to remember that the BJJ/GJJ folks also ignore years of research from the Judo and Sambo world and say it is fine for kids as young as eight to choke and armlock one another.

I have a personal story I can tell, and those who know me have heard it. Bottom line, it ends up with one broken neck and two suicides.

I continue to speak out agaist these things, but you will never get them to listen, they think they know it all...

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#177111 - 08/11/05 08:16 AM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: Mtripp]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Okay...

I want to clarify somethings about my statements.

When I posted this, I was thinking only of adults training with other adults, in a classroom setting.

I whole-heartedly agree that nearly all of the techniques on that page should not be taught to young kids. As for people who learn/see something and then go out and monkey around as described earlier, well, we can't control that.

Futhermore, I am not saying that there is no chance of injury when performing those techniques, just that IMO it is not likely you will be injured performing those techniques. I base that statement on my experiences, and from discussions with others. Myself, I'm more concerned about being injured during the course of a throw, not from anything on that link.

Has someone ever been injured from any of those techniques? I'm sure they have; MTripp stated he has a personal experience. However, the question is, how common are serious injuries from those techniques? I don't know if anyone is keeping stats, but I'm willing to guess those numbers would be incredibly low compared to the number of times those techniques are used.

Let's face it, ALL martial arts techniques are dangerous, and this includes boxing. Many of them COULD cause serious or permenant inury. So many dangerous techniques are used all the time, not only in schools across the world, but in the UFC, PRIDE, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc, etc, but those sort of accidents are very few.

But then again, what do I know? I have no facts and I can only speak from my very limited experiences.

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#177112 - 08/11/05 12:13 PM Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks [Re: BigRod]
Tant01 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 24
Quote:

This is an interesting page. ....

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

.....
Anyway, heres the link:

http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm





Hyper extending the CV in your neck or over rotating can cause instant death. Crompression fractures are also very dangerous but don't take MY word for it...


Between 6,000 and 10,000 Americans sustain spinal cord injuries every year (1). Motor vehicle accidents and falls cause about 55% to 75% of these, while sports and recreational activities account for a significant percentage of the remainder (2)


1. Young JE, Cantu RC: Life-threatening emergencies, in Cantu RC, Micheli LJ (eds): American College of Sports Medicine's Guidelines for the Team Physician. Philadelphia, Lea & Febiger, 1991, pp 143-150
2. Little NE: In case of a broken neck. Emerg Med 1989;21(9):22-32
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In Ferro Veritas. “In the sword is truth.”

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