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#176884 - 08/09/05 03:51 PM Tomari-te
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I've been trying to find out more about Tomari-te techniques and katas but so far have come up dry. Does anyone here know of a style or better yet train in a style that has tomari-te katas or techniques?

thanks in advance

James
_________________________
Even though you only have two arms you can still block with your forearms.

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#176885 - 08/09/05 04:46 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Crash]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Look up Koyoshi Pat McCarthy in his book Classic Katas of Okinawan Karate he explains and demos the origin of the three Ryus Shuri-Te, Naha-Te and Tomari-Te and how it was absorbed into both systems. And which Katas came from Tomari-Te how they look what they emphasized. Very enlightening, it makes you wonder why Tomari-Te couldn't have stood as a separate Tode system.

This is a start.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#176886 - 08/09/05 05:33 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Crash]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
The Okinawan Wonder site , amongst others catorgrises Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu as Tomari Te karate. It has also been said that the style is often 'confusingly' called shorin ryu.

For sure we train in tomari te kata within the style.

I am not qualified to really make any judgements and the advice of looking at Sensei McCarthys Koryu Uchinadi is certainly solid.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#176887 - 08/09/05 06:51 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Crash]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Tomari-te in known to be very similar in technique to shuri-te, with minor differences. It is described as being very soft and fast, emphasizing lower stances than shuri-te.
Who know's if there is a "pure" tomari-te still being taught, but there are people from authentic tomari-te lineage.

One lineage is of Matsumora Kosaku, passed on to Seiyu Nakasone and others. The other is of Oyadomari Kokan, passed on to Seikichi Hokama (not sure if these men are still living). I don't believe either Matsumora or Oyadomari type tomari-te are commercially taught, at least not widely; rather as a part of normal Itosu Karatedo.

Although Motobu Choki really practiced his own "style" based on a combination of his various instructors teachings, he did learn tomari-te from Matsumora. So Motobu Ryu as taught by Chosei Motobu can be thought to be very influenced by tomari-te.

Most Okinawan ryu-ha of shorin lineage have tomari-te in them, as the kata Seisan, Wanshu, Rohai, Wankan, Wando, Jion, and others are from tomari.

I hope that helps!
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

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#176888 - 08/09/05 08:11 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Alejandro]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
So far all I've found are 4 Tomari-te kata, their names and meanings follow.

Wansu - Chinese military envoy

Rohai - vision of a crane

Ananku - peace from the south

Wankan - king's crown
_________________________
Even though you only have two arms you can still block with your forearms.

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#176889 - 08/10/05 10:18 AM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Crash]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I have this information, but do not know its source -

Tomari-Te was developed out of the Shuri-Te style of karate and was indicative of the karate practiced in and around the Tomari village near Shuri. The differences between the two styles is slight. There were several Chinese visitors to the Tomari region that did not reach Shuri. These teachings did not originally influence Shuri-Te but later an exchange in ideas and katas did take place. Many kata became part of both styles. There were several kata, however, that are unique to Tomari-Te. These were Wansu, Rohai, and Wankan. In addition, though the exact origin of Ananku is unknown, it is believed that Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) brought back this form from Taiwan in the year 1895. There are others that are said to have existed but have been lost.
The Tomari-Te style was started through the efforts of Karate Sakugawa (1733-1815). The intital kata used was a version of Kusanku. The teachings of the style were carried on through Makabe Chokin (c. 1785). Infuences from South China (Chinto) and students of Chokin expanded the forms used by the Tomari-Te school. The unique kata Wansu, Rohai and Wankan appear to have existed solely in the Tomari-Te system until the 1870's. Yasutsune Itosu (1830-1915) is said to have developed the Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan versions of the Rohai kata. One of the later day teachers of the Tomari-Te style is Shoshin Nagamine (b. 1907). His Matsubayashi Ryu style encompasses many of the Tomari-Te versions of Shuri-Te kata, as well as, the unique Tomari-Te kata including: Pinans, Wankan, Ananku, Gojushiho, Rohai, Wanshu, Passai, Naihanchi, Kusanku and Chinto.

And this bit I have added -

It is also worth noting that OSensei Nagamine shows three key influences in his karate, Kyan, Motobu and Arakaki (discussed in detail in his book) - all three practioners of tomari te karate to a geater extent.


So there you have it ! Matsubayashi Ryu is Modern Tomari te, interesting..............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#176890 - 08/10/05 03:04 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: shoshinkan]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
I agree that Matsubayashi Ryu is the possibly best and most widespread modern representation of tomari-te.

According to most sources, true tomaridi didn't come in to its own until Makabe's own students began propogating it. Being that Makabe learned from Sakugawa, his tode may have not been drastically different from that of Matsumura. Perhaps his chinese study resulted in differences, but who knows. One accepted idea is that distinctive tomari-te was a result of Matsumora, Oyadomari, and Yamada's study with the reclusive Chinese man, "Anan", who supposedly lived in a beach cave in Tomari. Being that Matsumora (and his students) made tomari-te te known as a unique form of tode, the teachings of Anan may very well have been a big influence.

Although Kyan, Arakaki, Motobu and others all learned some tomari-te, they also leanred shuri-te, so the styles passed on by them and their students aren't true tomari-te. According to John Sell's "Unante", Orthodox Tomari-te was passed down by Iha Kodatsu, to Nakasone Seiyu and Kuba Chojin, and now preserved by Yara Choi and Tokashiki Iken (of Gohakukai). I don't know if either of these men commercially or privately teach; something worth researching.

Edit to first post:
Nakasone passed away in 1983; Hokama lineage isn't active.
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

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#176891 - 08/10/05 06:02 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: Alejandro]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I agree that an element of shuri te is included with matsubayashi ryu, and the tomari te is not 'pure' as the matsubayashi system is presented with consistency throughought the whole system, (despite obvious kata from tomari te and shuri te), giving it its own flavour.

I think the 2 tomari te styles you mention are only avalaible on okinawa, possibly a few private students worldwide but I have never heard of any. they are detailed in Mark Bishops Okinawan Karate, secrets and methods book so they do exist.

Be interesting to hear from any tomari te styalists around ?

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#176892 - 08/10/05 09:16 PM Re: Tomari-te [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Before Nagamine learned from Kyan, Arakaki, and Motobu he learned Passai, Rohai, Wanshu, and Wankan from Iha Kodatsu, Kosaku Matsumora's top student. Nagamine learned Chinto and Kusanku from Arakaki and deepened his understanding of these kata and possibly the other tomari kata he learned by studying with kyan. I am not sure if Nagamine ever states where he learned Gojushiho or Ananku, but I assume it was when he was a teenager before 1930. The way to analyze tomari te is to look at the tomari kata Nagamine learned from Iha Kodatsu and then compare it to the other Shuri kata.

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#176893 - 08/11/05 04:00 AM Re: Tomari-te [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Thankyou medulanet,

whilst this interests me in just focusing on training right now and keeping my feet on the ground re 'history', LOL LOL.

However I do appriciate your input on this matter as it is something i owld like to investigate deeper, further down the line - essentially when I have learnt the entire matsubayashi kata list, which will be a little while yet !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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