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#176577 - 08/09/05 01:10 AM Karate = anti grappling?
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I hope I haven't given the impression that I am anti -grappling! I've been training extensively on my groundwork over the last several years. I think it's important for self defense to be effective at all ranges. Is your karate school this way?
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#176578 - 08/09/05 01:22 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
sumrandom Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Western Australia
I think the 'anti-' prefix would imply an active stance against something.
So my club for one isn't anti-grappling, we just don't teach it.

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#176579 - 08/09/05 01:24 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin,

I have to say no. The karate that I study would probably have three big bases, all in standup: Kyokushin style full contact, boxing, and oddly..Aikido (not for the joint locks, but for some of the body movements).

The ground fighting that I learned over the years was an addendum to my standup training when my current karate instructor started practicing with the Machados around 1998. And so his training spilled over to my karate. Also, judo as an extracurricular class taught under a different instructor but connected with our dojo. This judo instructor won the heavyweight Pan Am BJJ BB championship in 2002 held at Dominguez Hills, CA.

And I had to source ground fighting at another BJJ only school to continue my education. I still love karate, but recognize the limitations in my own instrcution and am selfish enough to seek out, in my spare time, what I think I should learn.

-B

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#176580 - 08/09/05 01:36 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: butterfly]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I hear ya! My instructor was a wrestler and is very good an groundfighting,he's been teaching me alot about it and he has put it in with our regular karate curriculum. I don't teach it,I prefer to teach the kata and bunkai portion of the class because it's what I know best.
I could learn alot from a good BJJ school,but I'm not willing to pay or travel for it just yet.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#176581 - 08/09/05 10:33 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Pretty much.

And for what its worth, the main impression I get is that you ask good questions and make good comments.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#176582 - 08/09/05 10:41 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: cxt]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

And for what its worth, the main impression I get is that you ask good questions and make good comments.




I've got to concur. I will always read a a thread started by yourself or one that you've replied to.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#176583 - 08/09/05 10:43 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sanchin,

I think its safer to say karate is defense against anything that sticks itself out in your direction.

Okinawa had a strong wrestling/sumo tradition. There is no reason to accept karate development just ignored what was a potential threat. Yet at the same time it did not develop focusing on one attack versus another. In fact tradition seems to show the real purpose of karate was training, correct training. And only after correct training (totally up to the instructors perogative) would the study of application potential be addressed.

Karate was not designed to be an 'instant' street fighting system. And teaching application potential tends to focus on what the percieved threats were after all. History seems to indicate much of the 'extreme' applications were not taught at all, especially when present in the kata, hidden by the simple expedient of not telling the student what it was used for, but often just focusing on simple answers.

On the whole Okinawa was not a violent place, and there was little reaon to focus on the extreme potential of the art. Where it might have been useful was during the invasion of Okinawa by the USA, and even then after suffering so much devistation at the bombardment and bombing, as well as at the hands of the Japaanese, too, there was no need.

War re-inforced all that is really important is survival and life.

You know the lowest level of all our studies is getting the point where you have to use it. Which sometimes is extremely impossible to avoid, and then you realize what a dunce you must be facing, because if they were truly compentent you would not be there anyway. That's just the reality.

Something to think about,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#176584 - 08/09/05 10:50 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I've been in Judo since the 80s and training in Aikido, Chin-Na and Jujitsu ever since. When the JJ craze came about it just made me think I was doing the right thing. Though groundwork wasn't as potent or as important as it is now.

I personally like randoria or rolling over sparring, if my muscles sore from a recently weights lifting session. For that day I my limbs feel leaden swift flowing movement suffers but not rolling I seem to have more strength in my techniques?? Maybe its just me.

Yeah I Karate/rock and Judo/roll. I still think you gotta think/break something to call it Jujitsu.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#176585 - 08/09/05 01:35 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Victor

You bring up an interesting point.

I have heard it said that one of the reasons you see little OVERT grappling training in karate is that pretty much everyone was raised with training in grappling style pasttimes such as tegumai (term used in this case as meaning a grappling activity) and sumo.
Some type of grappling training was as common amoung Okinawan kids as baseball and soccer are today.

So folks training in karate already had some lengthy exposure to some form of grappling prior to training in karate.

Just a thought.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#176586 - 08/09/05 03:43 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
My sensi teaches 3 classes: Wado kai karate, kickboxing and grappling (jujitsu) I've done the grappling and like it, and I do think it's important, but I think I'm going to stick with karate and kickboxing for now and in another year or two I'll work on my ground game.
_________________________
Even though you only have two arms you can still block with your forearms.

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#176587 - 08/09/05 10:59 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Crash]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Sanchin, I would have to say that karate is far from "antigrappling" or lacks the training to defend it. I've been doing some research into AKK's history, and one of the things I've come up with is that AKK is definitely descended from Okinawan Karate, and it has a strong grappling base.

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#176588 - 08/10/05 04:07 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
GojuRyuboy13 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 538
Loc: U.S. of A.
In our little school, we really aren't anti grappling, but we try to avoid it I geuss. It's more or less a thing were after you hit the person several times than you go for a nice little take down to finish em.

We just don't practice throws and joint locks that much. I geuss that some of the peoples thoughts (including myself) is that if the guy or gal goes for some attempt to takedown that's just more oppurtunities to hit em. Except for the skilled grapplers . Than I suppose it becomes more or less a wrestling match.

Never really had anyboy shoot in on me, or even quickly dart in to throw me from some stand up position. I hope am quicker than that. We try to be more evasive.

But like I said, we aren't entirely anti grappling, we just don't work on it as much as I think we should. Since it is a huge part of almost any self defense situation and what not.
_________________________
May the force be with you.

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#176589 - 08/10/05 06:38 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Yes!
All Okinawan styles have grappling, throwing techniques but the emphasis is placed on striking. Once you have developed good evasion and striking skills throwing becomes easy. Also, if you form the techniques of Shorin Ryu properly it is very difficult to apply grappling techniques.

Karate is an immediate street self defence system (just thinking Tom Muzila, Ninomiya, Oyama,Michael j Lorden Kyan, Motobu, Jordan Roth, Arakaki Sensei etc...

It depends how is taught, how good the master is AND MORE IMPORTANT HOW MUCH CONDITIONED YOUR LIMBS AND BODY ARE!!

gambatte


Edited by Deltaforce69 (08/10/05 07:03 AM)

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#176590 - 08/11/05 12:39 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I pratice throwing/ground fighting on my own but I don't feel skilled enough to teach what I have learned. I train with a guy who knows a lot of wrestling and holds. We work together to make grappling moves more karate like. For example he likes to use brute strenght to lift people and throw them while I like to strike quickly and use speed to throw them.

Its hard for me to explain what I mean I hope you understood it.

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#176591 - 08/21/05 02:27 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: bo-ken]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I think grappling is inherit in karate - we spar, we end up in close, takedowns and groundfighting. We also train to "anti-grapple" because that is part of graplling - counters you know. . We also train to counter some takedowns in bunkai and self defense.

(If you have been to Stanic Milos's Shorin Ryu site, download the vid) or if you are familiar with the bunkai of Kanku Dai /Kusanknu it is full of grappling, aggressive takedowns and escapes.

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#176592 - 08/21/05 03:49 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Mark Hill]
jkdchick Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Canada
There's no such thing as "anti-grappling" anyway. To beat a grappler you gotta grapple.

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#176593 - 08/21/05 05:03 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: jkdchick]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
That's what I meant.

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#176594 - 08/21/05 11:40 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? *DELETED* [Re: butterfly]
MrChoppyMan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Belgium
Post deleted by SANCHIN31
_________________________
I love Jesus, he loves me and I really don't need anyone else. Read the bible. -MrChoppyMan

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#176595 - 08/22/05 12:00 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mr. Chophappy,

You seem to have aimed your rhetoric at me. I don't know why, I have not commented on your take on Martial arts. "I" find karate usable. You have not met me nor do you know the reasons why I study this art.

I have no considerations on why :you" do not like karate. Perhaps you have studied with folk that are a little less qualified than the people that I have studied with.

In any case, my advice to you would be the same as any one else stating what you are saying: If you do not like it, don't do it. I enjoy it, I do it. I did not ask for your take on what I do or the reasons why you consider something "useless."

Enjoy the day...and though many would agree with your tagline. Religious comments are outside the boundaries of this forum and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't list it.

Regards,

-B

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#176596 - 08/22/05 12:15 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? *DELETED* [Re: butterfly]
MrChoppyMan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Belgium
Post deleted by SANCHIN31
_________________________
I love Jesus, he loves me and I really don't need anyone else. Read the bible. -MrChoppyMan

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#176597 - 08/22/05 12:18 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
How come the copper I do Hapkido with can discuss restraints and strikes, and some of my fellow BB's at karate have been bouncers for years without major injury, while "escorting" all manner of drunken bozos and criminal flith from public bars...

How come a local boxer and BJJist (both quite good) are happy to work with one of these people (they all respect each other's abilities)?

Three martial arts outside of karate have practitioners who pay it respect.

I'll suggest your views are shallow and half baked.

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#176598 - 08/22/05 12:25 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Karate does not = anti grappling....

Karate = useless. Find something else. Unless you want a flase sense of security.




MrChoppyMan,

I have just watched a movie titled "Fighter in the wind" which is a Korean based movie which is based on the life of Choi Baedal aka Mas Oyama the founder of Kyukushin Karate. The karate shown is quite impressive... quite different from the type I see during competition. Hmm, if karate is potential to be like what I see it that movie, I would not be so quick to dismiss it as completely useless.

Xwf.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#176599 - 08/22/05 12:32 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mr. Choppy Man,

Let's say this: disrespect is what you have been showing a lot of practioners on these boards in various arts. If I chose Olympic fencing for the art I am training...it would not be out of consideration of self defense. My thoughts would not be for the guy on the street corner attacking me with his foil. What I am saying is my reasons are my own, not yours to decide for me.

What you have done is blasted your way on these forums and decided that you know best for others as to how and why they should train. Their considerations for training may not be yours. And it is not in your pervue to decide how, why, or with whom any of the folks here should train.

As far as religion goes, this is none of your business how I proceed in my daily life. Nor is it the business of this forum, or anyone on it, to parade religion to others. Even vague prosyltizing is not something I care for.

Finally, if you really believe a supernatural force intervened on your behalf for some sort of vengeance...then you have more problems that I care to consider. Ever heard of coincidence?

-B

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#176600 - 08/22/05 12:49 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: butterfly]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Stop replying to this guy. He is an obvious troll and will be banned as soon as admin receives the numerous e-mails from the moderators. DON'T FEED THE TROLL.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#176601 - 08/22/05 12:53 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: laf7773]
MrChoppyMan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Belgium
Ignore me,I am a hipocritical and judgemental TROLL. I know noone cares about my religious beliefs or my political agenda on here.
By the way SANCHIN31 is my forum superdaddy! YAY SANCHIN!!


Edited by SANCHIN31 (08/22/05 01:22 AM)

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#176602 - 08/22/05 01:01 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: butterfly]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
MrChoppyMan,

Sir, obviously you are a Troll, your post is incomprehensible and incoherent and as what you put in your bio, you have no life. So get one and enjoy it. I have added you to my ignore list. Have a good life, if you even have any.

Xwf.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#176603 - 08/22/05 10:22 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Anybody that thinks Karate is useless either has not trained right or has never had the confidence to fight regradless of what art he studies. Its not the Art that you study its how U use it. People that think Karate is point fighting I could see how they could think that its has major flaws. But lower, change and focus those same techniques at another target or with more power and becomes a formindable.

A hear a lot of people saying that as BJJ 3 year blue belt could beat most Karate BB 2-3yrs sometimes. Thats not a big deal when I was Purple belt I use to beat mediocre BBs, but I stayed Purple belt 2 years (My Sensei had move out of town and I studied other arts until finding another home dojo). So its time in it has nothing really to do with system or Belt rank.

As for Bjj doing well in UFC, thats great it still doesn't take anything away from how I used Karate to defend myself proir to the TV showing or DVDs. But it was interesting and useful.


Edited by Neko456 (08/22/05 10:24 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#176604 - 08/22/05 11:36 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: MrChoppyMan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

SANCHIN31 is my forum superdaddy! YAY SANCHIN!!




See Choppy, you can write a decent post when you put you're mind to it! LOL Sanchin!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#176605 - 08/22/05 07:20 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Probably one of the most overlooked things is that the long forward stance is excellent for grappling from. By sliding your leg behind the other persons, snapping it straight against the back of his knee, and pushing against his head/upper body, you will cause him to go straight to the ground. If I knew any of the higher level kata from the Okinawan styles, I could easily find several bunkai that match this.

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#176606 - 08/24/05 06:34 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
I think this question requires a definition of what groundfighting is. For example in many Judo schools almost no time is spent on the ground, if you are thrown then you get back into the ready position and begin again. By grappling do you mean trapping, grabbing, pushing, pulling, throwing and sweeping, or do you mean actual time on the ground. If it includes those things I listed above than our school is about 50% punching, kicking, and various other hand techniques, with another 45% in standup wrestling mode practicing sweeps joint locks and throws, mabey 5% of the time we pull the mats out and actually wrestle on the ground, looking for locks chokes and working for position. Wado is drawn from Karate and Jui Jitsu but I think a great deal of Traditional Jui Jitsu is training to put your opponent on the ground and hold them on the ground while you remain upright then you can do whatever you want with them. In the sport form it seems the goal is to take your opponent to the mat with you on top and work for a pin or points, or submission.

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#176607 - 08/24/05 07:34 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: jkdchick]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
"To beat a grappler you gotta grapple".

You wont beat a grappler if they are better than you at it.

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#176608 - 08/27/05 06:38 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: Leapordsknowbest]
heikeshogun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 23
Quote:

"To beat a grappler you gotta grapple".

You wont beat a grappler if they are better than you at it.




haha, come on, that's not true at all, you can counter grappling with alot more than just more grappling, I honestly think that's a little streatched truth, if you're both grappling when is anyone gonna win?

And in response to the original question. I believe that karate is not anti grapling, it doesn't teach it as much as other arts because it's not that kind of style, in my opinion.
_________________________
"Better to be a tiger for a day than a sheep for a lifetime." ~ Chinese Proverb

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#176609 - 08/28/05 02:03 AM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: heikeshogun]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Heike,

Have you ever sparred a grappler? Or sparred til submission? Once in grappling range it is necessary, in my opinion, to at least know some grappling so you can get more easily out of the situation.

Karate is what you make of it...it can contain grappling or not. Depends on how you train and what you want to achieve. But no grappling skills means getting trounced in that range if put there accidentally...or on purpose.

-B

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#176610 - 09/21/05 01:50 PM Re: Karate = anti grappling? [Re: SANCHIN31]
roniwankan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Brazil, Goias
My point of view is that we have to be ready for everything and everyone, karate does not matter if you are weak, short, or any other desadvantage, because karate teaches us how to pass over limitations.
_________________________
KARATE DO GA MUZUKASHII MICHI ARUKI NI DESSU, SHIKASHI YOI MONO WO YARI MASSU.

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