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#176105 - 08/12/05 08:20 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: Neko456]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Granted but let me explain I was talking about Mastering a technique, you learn the proper way it done, then you modify it so it works well for you and you use it in situations were it fits. I wasn't talking about in class what ifs, at the learning stage, that will only hamper progress. I'm talking about the point were you think you have a technique, then test it with a real attacking opponent maybe a friend/combat buddy from a different system.





To be quite honest, there is no "proper" way of doing a technique. All techniques are based on specific universal principles of body movement. All techniques have to be modified or adapted to some extent to cater for a multitude of variables, including body types (yours or your opponent), terrain, the way they are attacking, relative skill level etc. etc.

Essentially, we are talking about the same thing, but we're using different verbiage to describe it. And therefore it is essential that we use accurate verbiage to describe what it is we are talking about.

What is important is mastering the principles of how the technique works, rather than "carbon-copying" the outward expression of a technical form that one is shown.

Quote:

We agree that you don't take a untested or dull blade into combat, Right? You don't confront violence, with just theories do you? Just as you wouldn't enter a Kendo match if you only practice drawing sword.




A story is frequently told of how Musashi, the sword saint, carved a bokuto out of a boat oar and used it to defeat his opponent in one of his many duels. So I think the above point is moot, since it is the person wielding the principles of combat which work, and not necessarily the tool.

How is this even remotely related to the principle of non-resistance?

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#176106 - 08/13/05 06:11 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
"....How is this even remotely related to the principle of non-resistance? ....."

I can't speak for others in this discussion but where I was going has to do with perception and the conclusion that I was moving towards was the assessment of determining what constitutes "non-resistance". Please work with me for a second.

Research conducted at a university developed a model in which one person was invited to strike another person. The person so struck was invited to return the strike at an identical level of power. What was seen is that the individuals invariably escalated with each person striking the other incrementally harder. But there was one point that was particularly interesting even on those occasions when the person doing the strike really did hit with near identical force the strike was PERCEIVED as harder by the person being struck. The person DOING the striking uniformly reported that they had hit with equal or even LESS force.

In my previous posts I wanted to share that what I think I am hearing in a lot of posts is quite a bit of subjectivity being pressed forward as objective discussion when it isn't. In this way my previous post was to set the stage to point up that I think a similar argument could be made for non-resistance. My sense is that the person DOING the resisting probably perceives that he is resisting little or not at all while the person being resisted may PERCEIVE that the resistance is much greater. In this way it could reasonably be expected that people resisting each other would tend to escalate. ERGO: Non-resistance is not so much an objective principle as a subjective experience. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/13/05 06:16 PM)

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#176107 - 08/13/05 08:19 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Interesting research... I wonder what the research objectives were?

You've highlighted a very interesting observation regarding the subjective nature of experience and perception. Whilst I tend to feel that much of what is considered high-level "aiki" to be subjective experience, I am inclined to feel that it lies somewhere between that and objective principle.

Let me go back to what KiDoHae posted in the "aiki" technique thread regarding "fighting an empty jacket".

To me, this is the highest level of "non-resistance". However, at some point during the execution (kake) of the technique when uke is thrown, there is a moment when resistance by uke works against him.

I think the discussion can be made objective if we talk about what physical laws of nature are involved in this context.

What are your thoughts?

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#176108 - 08/14/05 06:07 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
"....I think the discussion can be made objective if we talk about what physical laws of nature are involved in this context...."

Absolutely agree. In fact I will go so far as to say that such a discussion can ONLY be pursued objectively in this manner. Where I think we get into problems is with the use of esoterica such as "projecting Ki". I am not saying "Ki" does not exist. What I am saying is that within the context of an objective discussion the use of a term which cannot be measured, reproduced at will, or adequately defined cannot be part of the discussion. For instance, one COULD define the "empty jacket" experience in terms of timing, speed, vectors, mass and so forth. We might give it a clever title such as "empty jacket" but the thing itself COULD be defined and reproduced. While I have experienced manipulation of "Ki" through my accupuncturist, a doctor of many, many years experience, he remains unable to adequately define what he does or how it actually works.

Lastly, I wonder if it behooves us to speak to such high levels of performance such as "empty jacket" knowing that the typical practitioner will only be able to aspire to such profficiency and most probably will not attain it. Thoughts?

BTW: I think the research was originally posted to DOCHANG DIGEST so I may do a bit of digging to see if I can find the original release.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/14/05 06:08 PM)

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#176109 - 08/14/05 06:49 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
shihan_chris Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 64
In my style of karate, there are a few self-defense techniques which are the same as those used in aikido. I find aikido to be very fascinating. Does anybody on this forum know personaly, any of Ueshiba's students? I think that it would be an honor to train with them and learn from them. I hope that I one day get the oppurtunity.

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#176110 - 08/14/05 07:00 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...Where I think we get into problems is with the use of esoterica such as "projecting Ki". I am not saying "Ki" does not exist. What I am saying is that within the context of an objective discussion the use of a term which cannot be measured, reproduced at will, or adequately defined cannot be part of the discussion.





Agreed. "Ki" has many meanings in many different contexts. It may perhaps be more appropriate to use the term "shuchu ryoku" or "kokyu ryoku" (I'm going by Shioda's definitions).

Quote:


Lastly, I wonder if it behooves us to speak to such high levels of performance such as "empty jacket" knowing that the typical practitioner will only be able to aspire to such profficiency and most probably will not attain it. Thoughts?





My teacher taught us at the highest level of performance from the day I started. The very same teacher that opened the eyes of my senpai to the mysteries of "aiki". All of the dai senpai that have trained with my teacher for the last 20-30 years all have this ability to move like an "empty jacket", as well as the ability to "extend ki" (both martially and healing-wise).

So I think it behooves us to talk about it, so it no longer becomes mere aspiration, but attainable proficiency.

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#176111 - 08/15/05 08:44 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....So I think it behooves us to talk about it, so it no longer becomes mere aspiration, but attainable proficiency.,,,,"

Sheesh--- we seem to be hitting a lot of good themes here!
You point is yet another issue that I think needs to be focused on. I hear far too many people speak in terms of exotic thinking or beliefs. One of the results is that a concept of "empty jacket" becomes some "ultimate" skill unattainable to all but the most rare individual. Once again, I think if we keep our feet on the ground and speak in terms of factual dynamics, the idea of "aiki" as a distinct and attainable approach to practice becomes much more realistic. For instance, if you think about it, the principle of non-resistance must, at its core have a drop of resistance. This is to say that while one can become an "empty jacket" there must still be a "jacket" for the attacker to have as a focal point against which to work his tactic. The trick as I see it is to provide only minimal cues to the attacker by which they can gauge force, vectors, leverage and so forth while exploiting the imperfections in their attack to one's own advantage. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#176112 - 08/15/05 10:36 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
Quote:

To be quite honest, there is no "proper" way of doing a technique. All techniques are based on specific universal principles of body movement. All techniques have to be modified or adapted to some extent to cater for a multitude of variables, including body types (yours or your opponent), terrain, the way they are attacking, relative skill level etc. etc.




Exactly. As my sensei used to say, "The technique is only a hint." The form is there, like a schematic for a hobbyist's crystal radio. But applied to reality, we find that the crystal is larger or smaller than the plans call for, the power supply greater or less, the wire thicker or thinner. Ideally, it would all be exactly as called for in the plan, but in reality, we have to make do. Hobbyist martial artists will get upset if given anything inconsistent with the plan. Experts make do with what they have. It might not look like the plan, but it works.

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#176113 - 08/15/05 10:43 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We agree that you don't take a untested or dull blade into combat, Right? You don't confront violence, with just theories do you? Just as you wouldn't enter a Kendo match if you only practice drawing sword.



A story is frequently told of how Musashi, the sword saint, carved a bokuto out of a boat oar and used it to defeat his opponent in one of his many duels. So I think the above point is moot, since it is the person wielding the principles of combat which work, and not necessarily the tool.

Thats exactly my point, if you are seasoned and have been in combat you know how to use the techniques and modifiy them for your personal use. Musashi is a prime example of changing taught techinque and modifying them for his personal use, creating almost a different method of delivery.

When I speak of sharpen the tools I talking about the technique using empty hand. You guys take me too literally.
And what it has to do with being non-resistance is that until you perform the technique against a resistance foe its unproven, FOR U.

I question have you ever used your art in a real fight? Or against another unwilling person? I know purist find this almost insulting but, still have you ever?
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#176114 - 08/15/05 10:53 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
[quoteI can't speak for others in this discussion but where I was going has to do with perception and the conclusion that I was moving towards was the assessment of determining what constitutes "non-resistance"[/QUOTE]

Well, there is also the problem of who is doing the resisting? Ueshiba said "I" do not resist. But he did like for his uke to give him sincere attacks and resist if they could. I think this discussion has confused the two to a large degree. ((((Since "I" should not resist, my uke absolutely must not.)))) I don't agree with that.

If I do a technique really badly, it can actually position uke so that he almost cannot fall. That's my fault. Not his. But if I consider his inability to fall to be "resistance" and I punish him with some nasty trick, that is way off the mark, as well.

You said, "where I was going has to do with perception" and that's where I'm going to: if the uke can perceive my technique at all, it isn't really aiki. In real aiki, the uke feels only his own movement and power and he is hit only with his own movement and power. If he can even perceive my technique, then resistance is already there. If uke can feel my technique happening, it is because I am resisting him, already.

If uke can resist my technique, it is because he can feel it, which means that I did not do aiki, meaning that I resisted him. And resistance is already there.

If I do real aiki, uke cannot feel it happening and therefore cannot resist. So the principle of non-resistance does not mean for uke not to resist my technique. It means that if I do aiki, I never go against the uke in any way. He cannot feel a thing unless I am already resisting him.

Quote:

My sense is that the person DOING the resisting probably perceives that he is resisting little or not at all while the person being resisted may PERCEIVE that the resistance is much greater.




Or, again, our movement may have set him back on his balance without any effort on his part, and then he becomes harder to move even though he didn't do it. It may be only our own resistance that we feel.

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