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#176095 - 08/10/05 09:09 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Yes and can you love someone enough to let them learn from the consequences of their own poor judgement? Bad decisions often result in injurious consequences. Attacking a person for one reason or another is a selfish act perhaps driven by anger, fear or desperation. Its not that I don't understand that. What I am saying is that to perform such an act and then have the defender moderate the consequences out of some misguided sense of protecting the attacker from himself easily could provide the attacker with an inaccurate sense of how the world comes together.

If I truely "love" my attacker, I will first protect myself from harm and then do what I can to educate the attacker as to the inadvisability of his behavior. This does not mean I MUST injure the attacker, but that certainly needs to remain an option if I am going to educate at some level comensurate to the level of the attack, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#176096 - 08/10/05 06:24 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Are you talking about "tough love"? I think it is sometimes necessary.

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#176097 - 08/10/05 08:36 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
In a word, "yes". I know that some people would pitch an arguement for more altruistic versions but I have come to believe that the "tough love" model is more in keeping with the uniform application of martial intent. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#176098 - 08/10/05 09:05 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No, I think you are spot on. In many ways, it is similar to dealing with a spoilt child. Sometimes they just have to dumped on their backside, or popped one in the nose (figuratively speaking - I DO NOT physically abuse my children!), in order to appreciate the futility of negative engagement.

In any case, such action needs to be firm, decisive and with a sense of finality.

In terms of non-resistance, (as he subtlety attempts to bring it back on topic), to me it means, going (entering/blending) with the child's line of thinking/action (attack/misbehaviour), and redirecting (osae) it into something more constructive (aiki-nage), or into something a little more persuasive (atemi).

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#176099 - 08/11/05 02:26 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

"Aikido is the principle of non-resistance. That which is non-resistant is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests nothing".

- Morihei Ueshiba

Discuss the meaning and relevance of "non-resistance" within the context of aikido.



though it is a long assiduous time before beginners acquire enough in practice to carry this out .

the perfect syntax for aikido is push or enter when pulled ,pull or turn when pushed .only apply this to everything you do .

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#176100 - 08/11/05 07:15 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: Jason DeLucia]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I remember one of my senior sempai saying to me that this stuff is "simple", and that our sensei makes it look so simple. However, after 15 years, I've found that it is and it isn't. It is simple on the one hand, but not simple when you go deeper and consider the many underlying layers.

I think the hardest part is "letting go" of technique (or attempting to apply technique). However, beginners (or at least when teaching beginners), must start somewhere, and invariably this means beginning with the form of a technique.

The difficulty is breaking out of the form and finding the "feeling" of the technique (i.e. su-ha-ri). But I feel, it is a necessary evolutionary stage in training, in order to approach the meaning of "non-resistance".

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#176101 - 08/12/05 01:14 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
But I feel, it is a necessary evolutionary stage in training, in order to approach the meaning of "non-resistance".


Its the only way to begin testing what really works for you. I mean you don't want to take just theory into a real self defense situation. U want to use what U know works for U, not what works for your Head Sempai or Sensei.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#176102 - 08/12/05 03:54 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: Neko456]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Hhhmmmmm... Not sure that I go along with this line of reasoning. I will agree that out of a catalog of techniques some moves will work better for one person than another and I have seen this a lot. I have also seen very young kids who have not very much time in class able to handle themselves pretty well if they are in a threatening situation.

I tell you what I hear an awful lot of in many of the posts on this particular net (though I am not saying that YOU--- Neko-- are doing this. What I hear are a lot of people who don't have a lot of confidence about taking care of themselves, so they kinda hang around looking for a couple of quick suggestions as a kind of short-cut to self-defense.A lot of times many of these posts sound like young kids who are afraid of the local bully and want some quick tricks that will get them out from under some bully's tyranny. The reason I say this is because I have found with the students I work with that this is where a lot of the "what happens if..." questions come from. My life experience tells me that as long as you want to study a MA you will never get around plain ol' free-floating anxiety until you decide to face it down for what it is. Otherwise you could easily spend the rest of your life trying to locate a pat answer for every conceiveable situation that might come up. Know what I mean? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#176103 - 08/12/05 04:24 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Granted but let me explain I was talking about Mastering a technique, you learn the proper way it done, then you modify it so it works well for you and you use it in situations were it fits. I wasn't talking about in class what ifs, at the learning stage, that will only hamper progress. I'm talking about the point were you think you have a technique, then test it with a real attacking opponent maybe a friend/combat buddy from a different system.

I feel a good technique is like the sharp balde of a Katana, you stone it/sharpen it and sharpen it. Test it and test it to assure it can do its job. Much the rumor has it real blade was tested against the straw rolled stalks and then stacked human cadaboiurs and then it was suited for battle.

If you just do Iiado you don't know how well the blade really works.

I've been shown many techniques by my Sensei some I can use others I can't use well enough for combat. I still teach it but I would never implement it in a fight. Body type and skill are only a few factors that determine how well you can do a certain technique.

We agree that you don't take a untested or dull blade into combat, Right? You don't confront violence, with just theories do you? Just as you wouldn't enter a Kendo match if you only practice drawing sword.


Edited by Neko456 (08/12/05 04:36 PM)

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#176104 - 08/12/05 07:40 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: Neko456]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....We agree that you don't take a untested or dull blade into combat, Right? You don't confront violence, with just theories do you? Just as you wouldn't enter a Kendo match if you only practice drawing sword....."

But is not this the very same question that comes to every MA student, in every MA around the world? Sooner or later the question is--- "I wonder if this stuff REALLY works."
The fact is that you are simply not going to find out just like a person who goes into battle ultimately wonders "how will I act when the fighting really starts?" Sure you can train, and imagine and even simulate--- but you don't ever REALLY know, do you? For instance, how many of these people who write in to this Net are basically asking the same question from various points of view, yes? The practitioners wonder if the stuff will work. The wannabees want to know what stuff will work. Guys from one art challenge another art about whose stuff will work. Sure you can get on a mat--- but even THAT is limited by usual and customary behaviors. Swinging the sword around is the same thing. Fact is, buddy, unless you want to turn the clock back, theories is all you have to go on since we as a people simply do not engage in gladitorial games any more. Modern warfare simply does not produce consistent opportunities for h2h combat under similar situations with significant enough frequency to say a particular tactic works 100% of the time.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are looking for. I don't know that you can find such an answer in these times. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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