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#176085 - 08/07/05 08:00 AM Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
"Aikido is the principle of non-resistance. That which is non-resistant is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests nothing".

- Morihei Ueshiba

Discuss the meaning and relevance of "non-resistance" within the context of aikido.

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#176086 - 08/07/05 09:24 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
rupert Offline
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Seongnam, South Korea
A sensible aim for the Aikido journey but it seems to me that you may meet some of your own resistance along the way.
_________________________
Rupert Atkinson http://discovering-aikido.com

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#176087 - 08/07/05 09:48 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: rupert]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
In the spiritual, mental or physical sense?

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#176088 - 08/07/05 04:32 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
See, now I am going to have a real problem here. We human beings are animals who communicate by encoding concepts into verbage, broadcasting that verbage to another who hears, decodes formulates a response, encodes that response and speaks back to the originator. The way I see it we have not defined the term before we started dialoguing.

By "prinicple" do we mean an axiom or a maxim.

By "non-resistence" do we mean incremental or complete-- and as was pointed out on what plane?

At the Yu sool level for Hapkido resistence is formulated (physically) along the lines of Newtonian physics with mass, force, vectors, velocity, speed etc etc as the variables.

At the hapkiyusool level, resistance is along the lines of impacting the partners neuro-muscular system including misalignment, misdirection, un-balancing and untiming.

All of these things can be said to "resist the attacker expressing their will over another person. But, then again so might Gandhi's non-violent, non-cooperation, right?

We already have at least four other threads speaking to "aiki" so I am at a loss to know where this is going. I also am not sure what time period of Ueshibas' life we are citing for the quote since his later expression of Omote Religious thought was more a function of later life than early-on. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#176089 - 08/07/05 08:10 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

By "prinicple" do we mean an axiom or a maxim.




In your opinion, what would be appropriate?

Quote:


By "non-resistence" do we mean incremental or complete-- and as was pointed out on what plane?




I'm leaving this open to discussion. Feel free to discuss whichever way you're inclined to feel.

Quote:


We already have at least four other threads speaking to "aiki" so I am at a loss to know where this is going. I also am not sure what time period of Ueshibas' life we are citing for the quote since his later expression of Omote Religious thought was more a function of later life than early-on.




The quote is from John Steven's book "The Philosophy of Aikido", and is oft repeated in other books of Stevens. There is no citation for when the quote was made.

I think the quote is more generally reflective of Ueshiba's later life.

I know I'm bordering on a fine line here, but feel free to discuss any religious implications of this statement, but, please keep it civil.

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#176090 - 08/08/05 06:51 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
In identifying Hapkido, despite its reputation for being an "eclectic art" the fact is that one must comply with the Three Principles or what is being done is no longer actually Hapkido. In this case it is a matter of using "principles" to mean "axiom" or "law". However, I think that the discussion would be better served if we used a premise based on "generally accepted principles" (maxims) as not everyone participating may want to speak in terms of absolutes. The reason that I raise this point is that I think if we make sure everyone is approaching such a subject from the same angle, we may keep from getting into word games later on.

In like manner, I see the ability to deal with incremental resistance as being far more demanding in terms of skill level than that in which a person is dealing with a large, planted aversary.

I'm actually growing very concerned that so much of what is used to examine Ueshiba's approaches derives from his later life. There was a certain pragmatism to his earlier art that was much impacted by the spiritual development of later life. Its not that this was necessarily bad, or that I am unwilling to take a more spiritual approach. Quite the opposite, I think that spirituality and ethics are under-represented in most discussions. Maybe people get a little nervous in these areas, yes? But there is a certain clarity that comes with keeping things utilitarian and I often find myself casting about for folks who trained with Ueshiba early in his career as touchstons for understanding what the art was meant to accomplish. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/08/05 07:02 AM)

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#176091 - 08/08/05 07:36 AM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


I often find myself casting about for folks who trained with Ueshiba early in his career as touchstons for understanding what the art was meant to accomplish




Unfortunately, I believe most of them have passed on...

I can understand the general reluctance and trepidation to venture into the flamebait territory, but I believe that the spiritual (or at least the philosophical) underpinnings of the art is one way of approaching the perspective of an old man who understood perfectly the utilitarian nature of his art.

I'm just curious to see what people's views are.

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#176092 - 08/09/05 01:04 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
Quote:

"Aikido is the principle of non-resistance. That which is non-resistant is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests nothing".




In aikido, we must be able to overcome the devil without resistance. This idea is found also in the Bible as "resist not evil". On the other hand, the Bible also says, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you."

Anyway, in aikido, to 'learn' to overcome the devil without resisting, we need someone to "play" the devil for us, and allow us to get a feel for the power he can exert. The devil is no dummy, after all. He is not only powerful but extremely subtle. So we need a partner who doesn't just fall over like a dummy but gives us a real feel of the devil's power. After years of experience, we can meet the greatest force and without resistance. If the attacker can feel our technique at all, he can resist it.

In judo, the epitome of this idea was described by someone talking about fighting Kyuzo Mifune: "It was like fighting an empty jacket." Yet Mifune threw him around at will.

So we, as nage or tori must "not resist", but the uke must give us a feeling of reality and, if he can resist our technique, he should, once we have passed the absolute basic level.

And as tori/nage, we must not punish the uke for resisting. It's nothing but a sign that we have wrongly applied our efforts. We failed to find true aiki if uke can resist.

But there can be no aiki from tori if there is no kiai from uke.

Both sides can't be doing aiki. One side has to do kiai or neither side can do aiki because aiki is the "ura" of kiai. Uke provides kiai so that we can learn to find the ura of his kiai.

So tori must not resist the attacker, but the attacker should resist tori if he can.


Edited by aikikiai (08/09/05 01:06 PM)

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#176093 - 08/09/05 01:14 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: eyrie]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
Quote:

"Aikido is the principle of non-resistance. That which is non-resistant is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests nothing".




And this is close to the principle of "love for all things". The only way to work subtly enough with another person that they cannot feel our technique is if we pay absolute and complete attention to them.

Why is it so difficult to apply so much attention to other people? Mostly because we don't really even like them, much less love them.

"love for all things" means that we look at them with full attention. How do we look at our beloved wives? We pay them full and detailed attention and do our best to get along with them. It's bad to resist your wife very much (can I hear "amen"?). But we can redirect them (as they do us) to other aims if we know them well.

So to redirect an attacker, we must perceive them on very deep and subtle levels and the only way to do that is to "love" them and give them full attention as people.

Then we are forced to notice that they are individuals and we can perceive a great deal about what they are experiencing in life to bring them to attack us.

An uchi deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, Terry Dobson, told of an encounter on a train when a large Japanese man, maybe drunk, was threatening other passengers. Just as Dobson thought he would have to fight the man, an older Japanese passenger said something to the violent man and within a few minutes, he had the big bear lying in the seat beside him, head in the old man's lap, crying as the old man stroked his head.

I've always found that story to give me shivers.

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#176094 - 08/09/05 08:38 PM Re: Muteiko - Principle of non-resistance [Re: aikikiai]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
A good point regarding the aiki-kiai mirror image of nage and uke. I think this is one of the difficulties of the practice today. Uke must throw a committed attack, and be prepared to follow thru with another and another. And if nage cannot deal with the initial attack, he is forced to deal with the next and the next.

I think "love" needs to be clarified. It is more than complete attention to the person or moment. It is also being in unison with your partner, of knowing without the need for words, of emotional detachment to the outcome.

Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" has a really nice piece of prose on love, but I think this section on marriage is more appropriate:

Quote:


Love one another, but make not a bond of love: Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup. Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf. Sing nd dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone. Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.





IOW, it is a harmonious "dance" between 2 people. One giving the other receiving. Who is the giver and who receives? I think is not so clear-cut. To me, they are one and the same thing. Uke gives, nage receives. Nage gives, uke receives.

For the record, my wife knows I don't really pay her full attention. (Yes dear, no dear... uh huh... uh huh... YOU'RE NOT REALLY LISTENING TO ME ARE YOU? Uh huh... yes dear )

But that doesn't mean I don't "love" her.

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