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#176058 - 08/07/05 07:55 AM 9 Pillars of Aikido
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
John Stevens talks about the 9 pillars of aikido technique in his book "The Philosophy of Aikido". They are:

1. Shiho (4 directions/universality)
2. Irimi (entering & blending)
3. Kaiten (opening and turning)
4. Kokyu (breath power and timing)
5. Osae (control - of self and a situation)
6. Ushiro (rear - dealing with the unknown)
7. Tenchi (heaven and earth - to stand firmly between)
8. Aiki-ken & aiki-jo (the sword of resolution and staff of intuition)
9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)

Discuss what these mean to you.

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#176059 - 08/07/05 01:23 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:


9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)





I like this one

Chris

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#176060 - 08/07/05 08:18 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Can you say why (you like it)?

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#176061 - 08/08/05 11:51 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Can you say why (you like it)?




I can....

I guess it is the inspirational part of it that I like. The concept of everyone fails but the successes in life come from trying one more time. Similar to "if at first you don't succeed"...

I probably don't look at the 9 pillars as having anything to do with the technical basis of aikido but rather as forming a mental state...

FWIW

Chris

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#176062 - 08/08/05 12:42 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
wer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts
I was discussing pillar theory recently because Jason DeLucia has some video clips up on aikidog.com labelled "5 Pillars" but I couldn't figure out exactly how they corresponded to the pillars I'd seen in various books. He said different teachers pick different pillars (number and content), so that got me scurrying for my references. As usual, I head for books when I'm trying to assimilate something on an intellectual level.

Pretty much all the big names in aikido have their own list of pillars or principles. The ones who say there are 50 or 100 or 150 basic techniques aren't all that helpful to me, it's the ones who boil it down to basic principles that I like.

Katsuyuki Kondo has a very nice list of seven Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu kihon (basic principles, or pillars) for comparison: rei, metsuke, maai, kokyu, kuzushi, zanshin and
kiai.

Gozo Shioda lists six: The Power of the Center Line, Focused Power, Breath Power, Ki, Irimi, Kaiten.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba lists basic principles: Posture, Assuming Ma-ai, Move in the Center, The Flow of Ki, Sen (anticipation), The Use of Power

Then he lists basic techniques: Ki no henka, Kyoku no Tenkan Ho, Ukemi, Irimi, Kokyu

Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Moriteru Ueshiba say there are 50 fundamental and basic techniques and say that the basic techniques build on the fundamentals. As fundamentals, first they say "Breath power and ki are the source of Aikido strength" and then they list these fundamentals: Kamae; Ma-ai and Me-tsuke; Rei, Zaho, Shikko; Unsoku; Sabaki (Irimi, Tenkan, Tenshin, Tenkai); Ukemi; Te-Gatana; wrist warmup exercises; back stretch; Tai No Tenkan (Shiho-giri).

Westbrook & Ratti in AIKIDO AND THE DYNAMIC SPHERE list four principles, quite distinct from discussion of technique: centralization, extension, leading control, sphericity.

And this is Bruce Klickstein's list from LIVING AIKIDO, the book endorsed by Morihiro Saito: Ikkyo, Shihonage, Koshinage, Kokyunage, Iriminage.

I'm going to have to chew on this for a while, but am hoping you folks will come up with some good food for thought comparing/contrasting these other people's "pillars."

Jason posted something about pillar theory in a discussion on Martial Arts Planet a week or so ago:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35675&page=13&pp=15

He's going to love this thread (and probably the Muteiko one, too) but he doesn't have computer access for a few days.

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#176063 - 08/08/05 06:41 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: wer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Excellent post wer! Good food for thought.
Looking forward to Sensei DeLucia's input.

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#176064 - 08/08/05 09:11 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


I probably don't look at the 9 pillars as having anything to do with the technical basis of aikido but rather as forming a mental state...





I think it's more than just that. The pillars (of any martial art) provide the foundational philosophy on which the art draws its strategy and tactical responses.

It'd be interesting to compare the pillars of another martial art, say karate, for a different perspective.

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#176065 - 08/08/05 10:29 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

Quote:


9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)





I like this one

Chris





Chris, I have only a few "martial artsy" things around to speak of. Of those, one is a Japanese dojo scroll with these idiograms - just a reminder to never quit.

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#176066 - 08/09/05 04:59 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

John Stevens talks about the 9 pillars of aikido technique in his book "The Philosophy of Aikido". They are:

1. Shiho (4 directions/universality)
2. Irimi (entering & blending)
3. Kaiten (opening and turning)
4. Kokyu (breath power and timing)
5. Osae (control - of self and a situation)
6. Ushiro (rear - dealing with the unknown)
7. Tenchi (heaven and earth - to stand firmly between)
8. Aiki-ken & aiki-jo (the sword of resolution and staff of intuition)
9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)

Discuss what these mean to you.




eyrie,

Keeping in mind that I'm not striving to gain a life philosophy from my martial arts, at least not one written down and handed to me by someone else - so what I'm about to say may sound heretical...

As far as aikido goes the pillars really depend on which branch of the art you study. I'm surprised nobody mentioned Tohei's four (Maintain Onepoint - Extend Ki - Weight Underside - Relax Completely). So I guess I have a hard time picking which set really is the foundation of the art.

The best I can do is find the one or two that strike a cord with me (such as #9) and take hold of it. If others find value in a particular set of pillars, then they should certainly work to own them.

Then looking at most of the pillars, they don't really seem to offer much guidance. I'm more of a principles type of guy, they give me a bit more to work with. Let's talk about skeletal locking and now I know what my strategic goal is!

In my experience the pillars aren't specific to aikido.

If you'd like to pick a pillar and share what it means to you, I would read it with great interest.

Chris

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#176067 - 08/09/05 08:03 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You've made an interesting observation regarding the pillars being dependant on the branch "style". wer was on the verge of a similar observation. I think the differences lie in individual interpretations of the foundational principles. But I could be wrong.

To me, the pillars form the base principles on which the art is derived, so it could follow that these are not unique to aikido, but generally applicable across the arts.

And because they are base principles, the myriad expressions that emanate from them are equally valid. Take skeletal locking for example. To me this is an extrapolation of Osae (control).

Sometime ago, I sat down and starting ceating a mindmap of all the possible principles in aikido. I think I came up with a lot more than 9.

I picked Steven's interpretation because of my affinity with the spiritual interpretation (and because I believe that the spiritual path is more closely aligned with the spirit of "aiki"). However, IMHO, the other interpretations are equally valid - if not more lucid than the inherent vagueness of the spiritual intrepretations.

I'm working on kokyu at the moment, so I'll pick it.

Even though it shares some commonality with internal Chinese MA, it appears the way it is done in aikido is somewhat different. The basics of the 6 harmonies and 8 powers are there, but the expression of it, surface-wise is quite different. (aikikiai also does xingyi and bagua, so it would be good if he could pipe in with his thoughts.)

To me, kokyu is more than "extending ki" - it's not just extending ki, but doing so at the appropriate moment, thru uke's weak point. (In many ways, the pillars are interrelated and overlap each other - at any point in a technique, you are working several principles at once.) So, for example, I would use irimi and kokyu to effect a skeletal lock in order to obtain "kuzushi", "osae" and "kake".

Kokyu, for me, is more like a spiritual "reaching out" to cut thru or control uke's center - it's not so much used to make the technique work (although it does have that effect), but to extend myself on some other level in order to "join with" uke's intention. But then I could just be messing about.

As an aside, but somewhat related, my wife (who has never done any MA in her 40+ years) has an uncanny ability to extend tremendous kokyu power, which belies her small stature and frame. Her power comes from years of chopping wood and living close to nature (being an Ozzie farm-girl) and singing. So to me, there are many ways to approach the same thing.

BTW, I wouldn't consider your first sentence to be heretical in any way. The whole point is to make it your own.

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#176068 - 08/09/05 08:18 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I just had another thought. (Oh no!)

Back to ukemi... I like the idea that ukemi is about not giving up (7 times down, 8 times up). The other side of it is also about throwing yourself wholeheartedly into whatever you're doing (i.e. giving it your all), and if you get thrown down, you simply get up and go again.

Ukemi is also about receiving whatever life is about to dish out to you, and you take it and deal with it the best way you can.

How does this translate to the martial art?

Nage is the mirror image of uke. Likewise, nage has to deal with whatever uke throws at him the best way he can. If nage [censored] it up, then he must go with the flow and deal with the next thing and the next thing. (Multiple attackers is a good analogy for dealing with the multiple vissicitudes of life).

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#176069 - 08/09/05 08:33 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

I just had another thought. (Oh no!)

Back to ukemi... I like the idea that ukemi is about not giving up (7 times down, 8 times up). The other side of it is also about throwing yourself wholeheartedly into whatever you're doing (i.e. giving it your all), and if you get thrown down, you simply get up and go again.

Ukemi is also about receiving whatever life is about to dish out to you, and you take it and deal with it the best way you can.

How does this translate to the martial art?

Nage is the mirror image of uke. Likewise, nage has to deal with whatever uke throws at him the best way he can. If nage [censored] it up, then he must go with the flow and deal with the next thing and the next thing. (Multiple attackers is a good analogy for dealing with the multiple vissicitudes of life).




I'm facing something similar in my BJJ class. Now I'm very much the grappling beginner but I'm realizing that whenever I had acheived a dominant position (it happens now and again) I was so concerned about losing the position that I could use the position.

now that I'm getting a feel for some positional escapes, I'm not really afraid of losing positions and I start to use them.

Or a slightly different angle, I never had a problem with nerves before a test. I have the mindset that I've trained and I'll do what I can and deal with whatever happens.

Now I gotta go figure out what my workout is going to be tonight.
Chris

PS - I'm currently at 27 principles and I know there are more!

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#176070 - 08/11/05 02:49 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

John Stevens talks about the 9 pillars of aikido technique in his book "The Philosophy of Aikido". They are:

1. Shiho (4 directions/universality)
2. Irimi (entering & blending)
3. Kaiten (opening and turning)
4. Kokyu (breath power and timing)
5. Osae (control - of self and a situation)
6. Ushiro (rear - dealing with the unknown)
7. Tenchi (heaven and earth - to stand firmly between)
8. Aiki-ken & aiki-jo (the sword of resolution and staff of intuition)
9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)

Discuss what these mean to you.



pillar theory to me is an essential method for quantifying form .to keep the outline for strategy basic ,i originally adopted the theory from bruce klickstein's theorum because five pillars was a ready made template to transpose five animal kung fu techniques which are very restricting to a person of my body type .very low and unnatural stance work of kung fu compared to the very natural rational postures of aikido .but in truth the pillars themselves represent the active techniques which one uses in his or her personal structure .for example in 'the secrets of aikido' john stevens says 6 pillars while gozo shioda in 'total aikido' quotes mr. ueshiba as saying the basis of aikido is shihonage , and done correctly is sufficient .to that i quote kishhomaru ueshiba's book 'aikido' where 'it is said that you hardly need to learn the other techniques if you completely master ikkyo' . some distill 3 pillars and so on but in fact depending on aptitude preference and circumstance it can be done within as little as one or as many as you prefer . here are some pillars

ikkyo
irimi
kaiten
shiho
tenshin
kumite
kote kaeshi
ushiro waza
osae waza
take musu
sutemi waza
etc

all having omote and ura and there is more depending on what you adopt into your own personal structure . mr ueshiba said that the martial arts of the past 'budo' together make aikido ,so as far as inclusion or exclusion of technique there's no such thing as a non aikido technique ,but you are refining techniques in the spirit of aikido .that is to say in the spirit of no resistance .when pulled push ,when pushed pull .

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#176071 - 08/11/05 06:54 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Jason DeLucia]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you Jason for your thought provoking post. From what you are saying, there are any number of pillars in aikido. And it is up to the individual to adopt and adapt these into their own personal practice and continue to refine "budo" techniques in the spirit of aikido.

However, I'm curious as to how "kumite" figures in the picture.

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#176072 - 08/15/05 11:03 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

Thank you Jason for your thought provoking post. From what you are saying, there are any number of pillars in aikido. And it is up to the individual to adopt and adapt these into their own personal practice and continue to refine "budo" techniques in the spirit of aikido.

However, I'm curious as to how "kumite" figures in the picture.



atemi being 99% of applied aikido and usually omitted during training ,is best interjected to the student as men of mr ueshiba's time learned it .the empty hand form (japanese kung fu) 8 point blocks ,reverse punch combination forward ,side ,back stance etc , has been a generic basic standard throughout asia for generations .and is the part of ring generalship essential to apply techniques .and of mr ueshiba's own admission he studied 'all styles of ancient japan' .

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#176073 - 08/16/05 12:25 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
9 pillars. By the replies you have gotten so far I am not sure if I understand the question. So - I will answer in the way I understand Aikido.

Shihon - almost all of the techinques can be altered to throw your opponent in any direction once you learn the techinque and get comfortable with it.

Irimi - One learns how to enter his opponents space and join with his direction without offending or forcing anyting.

Kaiten - After entering and joining your opponents direction of attack you open away from his original direction, walk froward and spin to drive him around with centrifiqual force.

Kokyu - Timeing is everything and breath brings power.

Osae - ( I have never heard this word ) but - With practice and I think age - your confidence will improve and with breath control you can keep from getting too excited about a situation. If you can learn to control yourself you will be better at controling a situation.

Ushiro - Automatically responding to a situation without taking time to think about it. Again practice. Work with executing techniques with your partner with your eyes closed. Learn to feel his intent, blend, spin, breath,and execute your manouver.

Tenchi - Energy flows like water from a fire hose. Keep the hose aimed at the fire but do not tense up to keep it there. If your opponent pushes harder than your flow you slide as if standing on ice.

Aiki-ken & Aiki-jo. I did not get much into the sword but the Jo is a teacher. When you learn to move your body all around the jo without influencing its position and keep your one point, you will also be able to do this with your opponent.

Ukemi - I do like the other explinations that I read here. Learn to gather energy from your breath while you are getting up. Use the energy of your fall to generate the power to get up. Always come back to standing with good one point.
-----------
I hope some of this made sense. All of these are hard to explain with only words.

Aikido is a good practice.
Keep working with it and asking questions.

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#176074 - 08/16/05 04:48 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Diga,

Great post!

I posted this question for a number of reasons, primarily to generate some discussion, and to ascertain the level and type of responses from the wider community.

Quite frankly, I am pleasantly surprised by the relatively high level of responses to this thread.

If I may be permitted, there are a few comments I would like to make on your excellent post.

Quote:

Kaiten - After entering and joining your opponents direction of attack you open away from his original direction, walk froward and spin to drive him around with centrifiqual force.




Stevens refers to kaiten as "opening and turning". Whilst Stevens discusses this from a philosophical perspective, i.e. being "open-hearted" or "open-minded", for me, I prefer the analogy of "turning to open" or simply "opening" (on various levels). In martial terms, opening away from your attacker is one way, opening into, opening to close, closing to open, or opening the attacker are other ways.

Quote:

Ushiro - Automatically responding to a situation without taking time to think about it. Again practice. Work with executing techniques with your partner with your eyes closed. Learn to feel his intent, blend, spin, breath,and execute your manouver.





Stevens talks about this as "dealing with the unknown". Since we don't have eyes at the back of our head, ushiro waza provides us with opportunities for learning to feel the unknown and to develop our ability to sense what is hidden. High-level practitioners refer to this as "haragei" or the ability to sense or feel your opponent's intent, without seeing.

Quote:


Tenchi - Energy flows like water from a fire hose. Keep the hose aimed at the fire but do not tense up to keep it there. If your opponent pushes harder than your flow you slide as if standing on ice.





Stevens refers to Tenchi as "heaven and earth". To me, it demonstrates the principle of duality and the very nature of aiki-inyo-ho. (BTW, I like how you used fire and water in your description, though I'm guessing it was subconscious rather than intentional?) More than that, I believe it is a simultaneous splitting and joining of power. The oneness of duality - heaven/earth, fire/water, emptiness/form.

Aikikiai earlier (on the non-resistance thread) alluded to nage being the mirror image to uke (i.e. nage's aiki to uke's kiai). In much the same way, the duality of nage and uke becomes one (movement) in perfect balance.

What is interesting is that in an earlier book (The Secrets of Aikido), Stevens only lists 6 pillars, and tenchi had been omitted in the earlier book.

I was mistakenly under the assumption that you were primarily a karateka, but from your elucidation of the above pillars, I'm grateful for your contribution.

Thank you!

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#176075 - 08/16/05 09:27 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Wow.....This has gone from difficult to explain as briefly as possable to almost impossable to explain with volumes of words.
I will try to tackle some of what you have asked here with what knowledge I have on the topic.

First - Yes - I have practiced only 4 years of formal Aikido classes. This I took with me and used along with Goju which turned out to be very helpful for entering,evading and flowing with my opponents intent.

I have not read Steven's books but it does sound like his emphasis is on the physiological. These things can be very difficult to get a handle on until one practices the actual physical application and is comfortable enough with it to be able to concentrate ones mind on the physiologic side.
You can see in ones eyes where they are as far as this goes.

Kaiten the opening explination - natureally can be done in all directions. In the end all 9 or however many explinations you have all blend togather. Everything flows like water which is completely flexable yet it can move or drill through solid rock.

Ushiro - Again my explinations are by practicing physically to train your internal abilities. I suggested working with a partner that you trust and that trusts you with your eyes closed. Not both of you at the same time just one at a time so nobody gets hurt. You will be suprised how much you can read from the first contact someone makes and the accuracy you can have even with out seeing.

Tenshi - The flowing water and fire is the way it was explained to me. Actually this explination wasn't so much about the fire as the flowing of water. It is the kind of tension you deliver in your movements - never static, never completely relaxed.

------------------------------------

I believe you are working more with mental additudes than physical practice ( maybe I am wrong ) which is fine. Infact I think my ability to add this to my mostly physical exercises did give me an advantage when sparring. If things were not going well for me I have several different additudes to call upon. Mostly - look into your opponents eyes to see his intent, from there stop and do nothing, then put yourself in his place, then ask yourself - What is a human being? This will let you know how to deal with a situation.

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#176076 - 08/16/05 11:26 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Wow.....This has gone from difficult to explain as briefly as possable to almost impossable to explain with volumes of words.




Meaning....it's very "Zen"?

Quote:

I believe you are working more with mental additudes than physical practice ( maybe I am wrong ) which is fine.




You're not that far off the mark.

I have been practising aikido for 15 years. Physical practice is fine, and is the usual way of approaching the art. But I tend to vacillate between the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the art every so often. I believe they are inseparable to understanding the art at a deeper level.

Because I also teach the art, "opening" for me means different things. On the physical level, it can mean those things which I have already mentioned. On a mental level, it means (to me) opening the student's mind to other possibilities. And on a spiritual level it can mean opening the student's heart to a "glimpse" beyond the physical.

One of my favourite training methods is called the "circle of fear" (the kids LOVE it BTW). Nage stands in the middle of the circle with their eyes closed. Ukes surround nage in a circle and attack (I call out the uke and the attack). It is amazing how many students freeze up when they are faced with the unknown.

Then it gets to be my turn.

On one occasion, I was able to "see" clearly where each uke was and who they were, even though my eyes were closed. On this particular occasion, I had stuck my hand out to where I anticipated my partner (wife) would move to and she walked right into my knife hand and split her lip. Another uke charged at me and I raised it in the attitude of irimi-kokyu-nage toward what I felt was his chest (without touching him) and flipped him effortlessly.

It is these moments that I seek in training, when I am completely at peace and in harmony with my surroundings. For me, this IS finding "aiki".

Of course I felt bad for hurting my partner, although it wasn't entirely my fault, and she needs to work on being more responsive in her ukemi.

Likewise for the other pillars, which you quite accurately point out, is integrated and flows each into the other. Stevens calls this "riai", or integrated practice - something I am continually working on and refining.

So it is with the other pillars, for me it's looking at it from various angles - physical, mental and spiritual. For me, I'm looking to a deeper understanding of the physical nature of the art, and I personally believe (IMVHO), that the key to understanding lies not only in the physical laws of movement and anatomical structures, but in developing the appropriate mental attitude (which you also noted), and becoming more in touch with the spiritual (i.e. what makes us human?).

You ask "What is a human being?", and therefore what is the appropriate response to deal with the situation? - I think this says both nothing and everything.

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#176077 - 08/17/05 04:34 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Aah ! Please excuse my direction of explinations.
I should have read your Bio. before rambeling on.
Your gentle innocence gave me the idea that you were getting most of your info from reading. Now that I know more about your years in the arts and that you are even teaching I will change pace a bit.
At this time I am taking a break from my daily projects so I will get back to our discussion this evening if possable.
I get the feeling now that you and I are birds of a feather.
I need some time to think.......Excellent.

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#176078 - 08/17/05 06:43 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No offense taken and none implied on my part.

Just trying to subtley raise the level of discussion.

I eagerly await your thoughts.

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#176079 - 08/18/05 03:37 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Ooh Maaan !
I had several peragraphs typed up to respond.
Then because one of those smily face expressions above would have been the best way to explain a statement - I tried to put 2 of them in my writing.
I must have messed up because all of what I wrote dissapeared.
Shucks....I think I just figured out how. Too late now.
Out of time again today.
Will try again later.

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#176080 - 08/18/05 06:35 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
OK...Here we go again.
As I look back at what I was writing before it is probably a good thing that I never finished with it. I think I was beating around the bush too much anyway.

To get right back to it I will start with what I think is key to this topic - Visualization.

In Dr. Stephen T Chang's book - The Complete System of Self Healing (internal exercises), He emphasizes the importance of visualization. In the 8 direction set and the 5 animal exercises the first thing you do on every exercise is close your eyes and visualize the direction or animal you are going to execute and as soon as the vision dissapears you stop and try again.
Myself - I have never been able to actually see a picture like immage but I do get an internal feeling or additude that to me is recognisable for each manouver.
Now I am able to bring up any of these additudes at will or I can notice when one has been brought about by someone or something else.
The interesting thing about this practice is an additude or direction of someone else can also instinctively be seen or felt.

Now....Carlose Castenadas books on the Yaqui way of knowledge tells that one can conjure up an image or additude and allow or will another to see the gist of it for themselves. Words need not be included to show someone your point of view.

These are two of the best explinations of what I believe your topic is about.
After I worked with the animal postures for some time I began to include them in my martial arts sparring. They proved to be one of my best allies when things are not going my way.
In my tight group of 5 old friends that have been working out togather for 30+ years, they have learned to see when I make a change from one additude to another and there is always some comment like " oooh (censored) or here it comes" When sparring with someone that doesn't know me as well I see them or , which in turn gives me more confidence which equals more power.
These have proved to be excellent tools in sparring and life in general.

I hope this is somewhere close to what you are talking about. I know this topic is much harder to discuss than wrist locks and snap punches but it is also more important.
After this I am going to check out more of your posts.
So far it is nice to meet you.
I do miss the Aikido class additude. Ki Aikido was the style I practiced many years ago.
--------------------------------
A quick note about Aikido.
Being as I am not a violent person, after I caught a burgler in the act of robbing my house and chased him out to my yard. When I caught up and grabbed him ( all I knew was Karate) I still was not upset enough to want to harm him so I did not kick or hit him. I took my backpack full of our loot away from him and told him to run.
After that I decided to take Aikido. If I could have pinned him down I could have held him until the police came. As it was he got away to maybe rob someone else later.
Aikido would have been the perfect thing for that situation.

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#176081 - 08/21/05 11:13 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
In addition to my last post there is another very important key.
J. Krishnamurti's books and lectures on seeing the world.
Seeing the truth in the truth.
Seeing the false in the truth.
Seeing the false in the false.
Seeing the truth in the false.

The topics I mentioned may not seem like the 9 pillars that you are talking about but in the end they do cover the territory that you are inquiring about.
Naturally my brief statements are not enough to make anyone actually understand what they all mean, but if one "sees" then it would make some sense and "seeing" correctly is the key to it all.

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#176082 - 08/21/05 07:10 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It seems we are of like minds.

I'd be interested to see what other arts (let's take karate for example) see as their pillars or underlying principles.

Goju, for example, means "hard-soft". To me this is an embodiment of the yin/yang principle. Sanchin and Tensho are ways of developing ki and kokyu power (i.e. kiko/qigong). What other principles are there? Similar? Different?

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#176083 - 08/29/05 11:11 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Sorry it has taken me so long to add more to this topic.
Actually....I don't believe Go Ju has much in common with the spiritual aspect of martial arts. It is more scientific, geometrical and it states that learning the basics well is better than going on to more complex techniques too soon.
If anything crosses my mind in the direction you are asking about I will try again.

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#176084 - 09/19/05 09:32 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

Thank you Jason for your thought provoking post. From what you are saying, there are any number of pillars in aikido. And it is up to the individual to adopt and adapt these into their own personal practice and continue to refine "budo" techniques in the spirit of aikido.

However, I'm curious as to how "kumite" figures in the picture.



chuck liddell in ufc is a perfect example of karate kumite the way it was meant .

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