FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 42 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
AndyLA 3
Zombie Zero 2
Matakiant 2
futsaowingchun 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
09/18/14 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#176068 - 08/09/05 08:18 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I just had another thought. (Oh no!)

Back to ukemi... I like the idea that ukemi is about not giving up (7 times down, 8 times up). The other side of it is also about throwing yourself wholeheartedly into whatever you're doing (i.e. giving it your all), and if you get thrown down, you simply get up and go again.

Ukemi is also about receiving whatever life is about to dish out to you, and you take it and deal with it the best way you can.

How does this translate to the martial art?

Nage is the mirror image of uke. Likewise, nage has to deal with whatever uke throws at him the best way he can. If nage [censored] it up, then he must go with the flow and deal with the next thing and the next thing. (Multiple attackers is a good analogy for dealing with the multiple vissicitudes of life).

Top
#176069 - 08/09/05 08:33 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

I just had another thought. (Oh no!)

Back to ukemi... I like the idea that ukemi is about not giving up (7 times down, 8 times up). The other side of it is also about throwing yourself wholeheartedly into whatever you're doing (i.e. giving it your all), and if you get thrown down, you simply get up and go again.

Ukemi is also about receiving whatever life is about to dish out to you, and you take it and deal with it the best way you can.

How does this translate to the martial art?

Nage is the mirror image of uke. Likewise, nage has to deal with whatever uke throws at him the best way he can. If nage [censored] it up, then he must go with the flow and deal with the next thing and the next thing. (Multiple attackers is a good analogy for dealing with the multiple vissicitudes of life).




I'm facing something similar in my BJJ class. Now I'm very much the grappling beginner but I'm realizing that whenever I had acheived a dominant position (it happens now and again) I was so concerned about losing the position that I could use the position.

now that I'm getting a feel for some positional escapes, I'm not really afraid of losing positions and I start to use them.

Or a slightly different angle, I never had a problem with nerves before a test. I have the mindset that I've trained and I'll do what I can and deal with whatever happens.

Now I gotta go figure out what my workout is going to be tonight.
Chris

PS - I'm currently at 27 principles and I know there are more!

Top
#176070 - 08/11/05 02:49 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

John Stevens talks about the 9 pillars of aikido technique in his book "The Philosophy of Aikido". They are:

1. Shiho (4 directions/universality)
2. Irimi (entering & blending)
3. Kaiten (opening and turning)
4. Kokyu (breath power and timing)
5. Osae (control - of self and a situation)
6. Ushiro (rear - dealing with the unknown)
7. Tenchi (heaven and earth - to stand firmly between)
8. Aiki-ken & aiki-jo (the sword of resolution and staff of intuition)
9. Ukemi (7 times down, 8 times up)

Discuss what these mean to you.



pillar theory to me is an essential method for quantifying form .to keep the outline for strategy basic ,i originally adopted the theory from bruce klickstein's theorum because five pillars was a ready made template to transpose five animal kung fu techniques which are very restricting to a person of my body type .very low and unnatural stance work of kung fu compared to the very natural rational postures of aikido .but in truth the pillars themselves represent the active techniques which one uses in his or her personal structure .for example in 'the secrets of aikido' john stevens says 6 pillars while gozo shioda in 'total aikido' quotes mr. ueshiba as saying the basis of aikido is shihonage , and done correctly is sufficient .to that i quote kishhomaru ueshiba's book 'aikido' where 'it is said that you hardly need to learn the other techniques if you completely master ikkyo' . some distill 3 pillars and so on but in fact depending on aptitude preference and circumstance it can be done within as little as one or as many as you prefer . here are some pillars

ikkyo
irimi
kaiten
shiho
tenshin
kumite
kote kaeshi
ushiro waza
osae waza
take musu
sutemi waza
etc

all having omote and ura and there is more depending on what you adopt into your own personal structure . mr ueshiba said that the martial arts of the past 'budo' together make aikido ,so as far as inclusion or exclusion of technique there's no such thing as a non aikido technique ,but you are refining techniques in the spirit of aikido .that is to say in the spirit of no resistance .when pulled push ,when pushed pull .

Top
#176071 - 08/11/05 06:54 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Jason DeLucia]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you Jason for your thought provoking post. From what you are saying, there are any number of pillars in aikido. And it is up to the individual to adopt and adapt these into their own personal practice and continue to refine "budo" techniques in the spirit of aikido.

However, I'm curious as to how "kumite" figures in the picture.

Top
#176072 - 08/15/05 11:03 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Jason DeLucia Offline
Professional Fighter

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 9
Quote:

Thank you Jason for your thought provoking post. From what you are saying, there are any number of pillars in aikido. And it is up to the individual to adopt and adapt these into their own personal practice and continue to refine "budo" techniques in the spirit of aikido.

However, I'm curious as to how "kumite" figures in the picture.



atemi being 99% of applied aikido and usually omitted during training ,is best interjected to the student as men of mr ueshiba's time learned it .the empty hand form (japanese kung fu) 8 point blocks ,reverse punch combination forward ,side ,back stance etc , has been a generic basic standard throughout asia for generations .and is the part of ring generalship essential to apply techniques .and of mr ueshiba's own admission he studied 'all styles of ancient japan' .

Top
#176073 - 08/16/05 12:25 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
9 pillars. By the replies you have gotten so far I am not sure if I understand the question. So - I will answer in the way I understand Aikido.

Shihon - almost all of the techinques can be altered to throw your opponent in any direction once you learn the techinque and get comfortable with it.

Irimi - One learns how to enter his opponents space and join with his direction without offending or forcing anyting.

Kaiten - After entering and joining your opponents direction of attack you open away from his original direction, walk froward and spin to drive him around with centrifiqual force.

Kokyu - Timeing is everything and breath brings power.

Osae - ( I have never heard this word ) but - With practice and I think age - your confidence will improve and with breath control you can keep from getting too excited about a situation. If you can learn to control yourself you will be better at controling a situation.

Ushiro - Automatically responding to a situation without taking time to think about it. Again practice. Work with executing techniques with your partner with your eyes closed. Learn to feel his intent, blend, spin, breath,and execute your manouver.

Tenchi - Energy flows like water from a fire hose. Keep the hose aimed at the fire but do not tense up to keep it there. If your opponent pushes harder than your flow you slide as if standing on ice.

Aiki-ken & Aiki-jo. I did not get much into the sword but the Jo is a teacher. When you learn to move your body all around the jo without influencing its position and keep your one point, you will also be able to do this with your opponent.

Ukemi - I do like the other explinations that I read here. Learn to gather energy from your breath while you are getting up. Use the energy of your fall to generate the power to get up. Always come back to standing with good one point.
-----------
I hope some of this made sense. All of these are hard to explain with only words.

Aikido is a good practice.
Keep working with it and asking questions.

Top
#176074 - 08/16/05 04:48 AM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Diga,

Great post!

I posted this question for a number of reasons, primarily to generate some discussion, and to ascertain the level and type of responses from the wider community.

Quite frankly, I am pleasantly surprised by the relatively high level of responses to this thread.

If I may be permitted, there are a few comments I would like to make on your excellent post.

Quote:

Kaiten - After entering and joining your opponents direction of attack you open away from his original direction, walk froward and spin to drive him around with centrifiqual force.




Stevens refers to kaiten as "opening and turning". Whilst Stevens discusses this from a philosophical perspective, i.e. being "open-hearted" or "open-minded", for me, I prefer the analogy of "turning to open" or simply "opening" (on various levels). In martial terms, opening away from your attacker is one way, opening into, opening to close, closing to open, or opening the attacker are other ways.

Quote:

Ushiro - Automatically responding to a situation without taking time to think about it. Again practice. Work with executing techniques with your partner with your eyes closed. Learn to feel his intent, blend, spin, breath,and execute your manouver.





Stevens talks about this as "dealing with the unknown". Since we don't have eyes at the back of our head, ushiro waza provides us with opportunities for learning to feel the unknown and to develop our ability to sense what is hidden. High-level practitioners refer to this as "haragei" or the ability to sense or feel your opponent's intent, without seeing.

Quote:


Tenchi - Energy flows like water from a fire hose. Keep the hose aimed at the fire but do not tense up to keep it there. If your opponent pushes harder than your flow you slide as if standing on ice.





Stevens refers to Tenchi as "heaven and earth". To me, it demonstrates the principle of duality and the very nature of aiki-inyo-ho. (BTW, I like how you used fire and water in your description, though I'm guessing it was subconscious rather than intentional?) More than that, I believe it is a simultaneous splitting and joining of power. The oneness of duality - heaven/earth, fire/water, emptiness/form.

Aikikiai earlier (on the non-resistance thread) alluded to nage being the mirror image to uke (i.e. nage's aiki to uke's kiai). In much the same way, the duality of nage and uke becomes one (movement) in perfect balance.

What is interesting is that in an earlier book (The Secrets of Aikido), Stevens only lists 6 pillars, and tenchi had been omitted in the earlier book.

I was mistakenly under the assumption that you were primarily a karateka, but from your elucidation of the above pillars, I'm grateful for your contribution.

Thank you!

Top
#176075 - 08/16/05 09:27 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Wow.....This has gone from difficult to explain as briefly as possable to almost impossable to explain with volumes of words.
I will try to tackle some of what you have asked here with what knowledge I have on the topic.

First - Yes - I have practiced only 4 years of formal Aikido classes. This I took with me and used along with Goju which turned out to be very helpful for entering,evading and flowing with my opponents intent.

I have not read Steven's books but it does sound like his emphasis is on the physiological. These things can be very difficult to get a handle on until one practices the actual physical application and is comfortable enough with it to be able to concentrate ones mind on the physiologic side.
You can see in ones eyes where they are as far as this goes.

Kaiten the opening explination - natureally can be done in all directions. In the end all 9 or however many explinations you have all blend togather. Everything flows like water which is completely flexable yet it can move or drill through solid rock.

Ushiro - Again my explinations are by practicing physically to train your internal abilities. I suggested working with a partner that you trust and that trusts you with your eyes closed. Not both of you at the same time just one at a time so nobody gets hurt. You will be suprised how much you can read from the first contact someone makes and the accuracy you can have even with out seeing.

Tenshi - The flowing water and fire is the way it was explained to me. Actually this explination wasn't so much about the fire as the flowing of water. It is the kind of tension you deliver in your movements - never static, never completely relaxed.

------------------------------------

I believe you are working more with mental additudes than physical practice ( maybe I am wrong ) which is fine. Infact I think my ability to add this to my mostly physical exercises did give me an advantage when sparring. If things were not going well for me I have several different additudes to call upon. Mostly - look into your opponents eyes to see his intent, from there stop and do nothing, then put yourself in his place, then ask yourself - What is a human being? This will let you know how to deal with a situation.

Top
#176076 - 08/16/05 11:26 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: Diga]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Wow.....This has gone from difficult to explain as briefly as possable to almost impossable to explain with volumes of words.




Meaning....it's very "Zen"?

Quote:

I believe you are working more with mental additudes than physical practice ( maybe I am wrong ) which is fine.




You're not that far off the mark.

I have been practising aikido for 15 years. Physical practice is fine, and is the usual way of approaching the art. But I tend to vacillate between the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the art every so often. I believe they are inseparable to understanding the art at a deeper level.

Because I also teach the art, "opening" for me means different things. On the physical level, it can mean those things which I have already mentioned. On a mental level, it means (to me) opening the student's mind to other possibilities. And on a spiritual level it can mean opening the student's heart to a "glimpse" beyond the physical.

One of my favourite training methods is called the "circle of fear" (the kids LOVE it BTW). Nage stands in the middle of the circle with their eyes closed. Ukes surround nage in a circle and attack (I call out the uke and the attack). It is amazing how many students freeze up when they are faced with the unknown.

Then it gets to be my turn.

On one occasion, I was able to "see" clearly where each uke was and who they were, even though my eyes were closed. On this particular occasion, I had stuck my hand out to where I anticipated my partner (wife) would move to and she walked right into my knife hand and split her lip. Another uke charged at me and I raised it in the attitude of irimi-kokyu-nage toward what I felt was his chest (without touching him) and flipped him effortlessly.

It is these moments that I seek in training, when I am completely at peace and in harmony with my surroundings. For me, this IS finding "aiki".

Of course I felt bad for hurting my partner, although it wasn't entirely my fault, and she needs to work on being more responsive in her ukemi.

Likewise for the other pillars, which you quite accurately point out, is integrated and flows each into the other. Stevens calls this "riai", or integrated practice - something I am continually working on and refining.

So it is with the other pillars, for me it's looking at it from various angles - physical, mental and spiritual. For me, I'm looking to a deeper understanding of the physical nature of the art, and I personally believe (IMVHO), that the key to understanding lies not only in the physical laws of movement and anatomical structures, but in developing the appropriate mental attitude (which you also noted), and becoming more in touch with the spiritual (i.e. what makes us human?).

You ask "What is a human being?", and therefore what is the appropriate response to deal with the situation? - I think this says both nothing and everything.

Top
#176077 - 08/17/05 04:34 PM Re: 9 Pillars of Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Aah ! Please excuse my direction of explinations.
I should have read your Bio. before rambeling on.
Your gentle innocence gave me the idea that you were getting most of your info from reading. Now that I know more about your years in the arts and that you are even teaching I will change pace a bit.
At this time I am taking a break from my daily projects so I will get back to our discussion this evening if possable.
I get the feeling now that you and I are birds of a feather.
I need some time to think.......Excellent.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga