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#176002 - 08/07/05 06:11 AM Why is karate under attack!
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Karate under attack is nothing new.

Let's see I recall the boxers maintaing they could demolish anyone in karate. Then the "Bruce Lee" faddists maintained the same. Then Ninjutsu dudes, the Full Contact Karate can demolish all others, and so forth to todays jututsu stylists.

If you stay around a while you see it over and over and each time it's the same, our art it stronger, more complete, etc.

What you find is it makes absolutely no difference in the long run. Each group makes the same claims, trying to pick off the 'big boy' to make a name for themselves.

What is the reality?

1. Karate is not one practice, it's thousands of different practices, which sometimes resemble their abstraction of what's bad/wrong about karate, and frequently is something they have no idea about.
2. Each art has a different audience. the person who really want's to study Chiense systems has no interest in Okinawan ones. The person who was't jujutsu has no interest in karate's arts. So all the yak is just that yak.
3. Arts that mix it up (Boxing, wrestling and so forth) simply eliminate anyone's who's not willing to do so almost immediately, because of pain or lack of inherent skill). Their focus is taking a small set of techniques and pushing them so those that have it get 'it' quickly and then polish off those that don't. That very infreqently has been what any of the karate answers were for, but the range of what karate respesents is so vast there are karate programs with identicla agenda's as those programs too.
4. The continual pressing, how does this work, and it's wrong because whatever reason, such as the person is too upright to make it work, is always based on hasty abstraction. Outside of a general level of discourse, you can't take something that is built piece by piece in instruction and explain all the details in simple words.
5. The claims Karate can't handle this (pick any of their claims) is based on their perception of what karate is and what it does. One simple example, the karate I teach is not deliminted by you can or you can't do at advancing levels. One almost always has something in ones hands in reality, and as we practice environmental defense such as using keys, etc., removing 3 or 4 inches of someone's face as they're trying to shoot in reality is a reasonable response based on our art has no rules.
6. The true reality, where most of us train and live, the odds of being attacked by a boxer, a BJJ stylist, a ninji or whatever are non-existent, so who cares. Numerially there are likely more people running around in any area who have trained in wrestling than any of those arts, in say the last 100 years. How many documented cases of fights exist where wrestlers took people out with a shoot? guess what very few because most wrestlers don't fight, nor to most boxers, ninji or karate-ka. Their training leads them away from actual violence unless totally necessary. Worring about the 'dreaded' attack has little to do with reality which is always chaging.

Well that gives you some idea of what I consider 30+ years of watching variations on these attacks.

And what do they mean.

Well if anything karate became stronger over the years, attack after attack. Perhaps because instructors considered those points too.

In a generic sense, in a public mind, karate is number one, and what the attacks represent is envy and a desire to pick off the big boy.

But in reality, karate is not one thing, and whatever assumptions they base their charges on, which may be accurate assessments in some realities, never take into accout the full range of what karate activities represent.

So 'generically' doing 'karate' we should be flattered that they care enough to try and take 'us' on.

Cause you will find when the next fad art replaces the current fad arts, those arts will be doing the same, I guarantee it. It's what the lessons show over and over.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#176003 - 08/07/05 07:00 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Victor,

I think this post is extremly worth while putting some words based on expierience down,

I think the 'attacks' are mainly delivered against TMA (karate included) which essentially train with kata as the base, on the surface its an easy target.

Also many TMA make claims that are incredibly inaccurate, ie semi contact modern club advertising 'self defense' - you know the ones they often have a karateka using a jodan kick at long range in the advertisement............ However we all know that this isnt accurate at all.

I agree that 'karate' is a vast topic, with many interpretations. After 10 years of study I dropped karate as what I was taught wasnt working in reality, this wasnt the arts fault of course. I looked else where and studied wing chun, judo and thai boxing for a few years, without doubt I became a better martial artist for doing this and I wouldnt change a thing now.

However my love of karate tradition sent me on a search for 'real' karate - something that i have now found with my instructors, the crazy thing was it was always there, i just didnt see it! (and its not different at all from the key things i learned from judo, thai boxing and wing chun)

For me the problem is two fold -

1. People want different things from karate, they train for different reasons - often forgetting that fact when they 'discuss'or advertise their karate.

2. karate is taught (or applied) in different ways by every dojo, this often doesnt meet the practioners motivations/expectations for training, leading for them to 'jump ship' early in training - sometimes this is the right thing to do, sometimes it isnt. karate is meant to be taught differently to different individuals, however this isnt practical to dojos who want large numbers of students for the £ or $.

I think it is fair to say that some people look at martial arts as a business (increasingly so) and therefore the 'moral' side to TMA instrution/practise is often a 'grey' area.

I now train with specific goals and sometimes no goals, I also view karate as a lifes study and try and make what we do in the dojo effect my life outside of the dojo, I view karate as a tree which has lots of branches examples (just my curent 'karate')-

strength training (home)
endurance training (home)
internal study (shitatsu training, TCM based)
makiwara/heavy bag training
dojo training - mainly kata and pair work, all ranges, no pads
diet changes (inc suppliments)
meditation (basic zen)
kobudo training

this is all done bit by bit, no rush for belts or certificates and all integrated into what I call 'karate'. of course it is also all ok by my instructors to pursue these things, thats important to me as well.

I also place great importance that when people ask me why i do these things (karate) that i awnser because I love training in karate, yep I get some self defense, some health and moral benefits, a great bunch of likeminded people to train with and discuss things with worldwide etc etc but these are all additional benefits, i train because I love the tradition and self improvement that TMA brings into my life, and for me specifically okinawan karate.

karate wasnt designed (to me) for sporting matches, to break bricks, to devestate several attackers armed with swords or even to do the full splits - it can be interprated this way if one wishes, karate to me is about life preservation and life development, for us and everyne we come into contact with, and long may it last.

I will admit I am a little blinkered in my views, and have trouble dealing with individuals who are less motivated than myself, but my training is helping my character develop as well.

One of my instructors said to me a long time ago, I can teach you to run extremly fast to your destination, but when you get there you will be out of breath, sweaty and thirsty, you wont have noticed much on the way,

or we could take a stroll together , meet a few friends on the way, take a good lunch out at a nice resturant, hell stop of for a sleep. You could also bring your family and friends, and meet mine, if you need to stop at all then I can happily wait a while for you.

The trick is to enjoy the journey, not the destination!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#176004 - 08/07/05 07:06 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: Victor Smith]
kickcatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK
Sounds like you don’t really understand the common criticisms of karate mate. You also make many generalizations that wouldn’t be allowed here if they were made from the other ‘side’.
Quote:

1. Karate is not one practice, it's thousands of different practices, which sometimes resemble their abstraction of what's bad/wrong about karate, and frequently is something they have no idea about.


You are suggesting that karate’s critics don’t know karate? That is naïve and unsubstantiated generalization.
Quote:

3. Arts that mix it up (Boxing, wrestling and so forth) simply eliminate anyone's who's not willing to do so almost immediately, because of pain or lack of inherent skill). Their focus is taking a small set of techniques and pushing them so those that have it get 'it' quickly and then polish off those that don't. That very infreqently has been what any of the karate answers were for, but the range of what karate respesents is so vast there are karate programs with identicla agenda's as those programs too.


So the scope of karate is vaster than say MMA???? –MMAers probably being the most vocal detractors of Karate.
Quote:

4. The continual pressing, how does this work, and it's wrong because whatever reason, such as the person is too upright to make it work, is always based on hasty abstraction. Outside of a general level of discourse, you can't take something that is built piece by piece in instruction and explain all the details in simple words.


I’m lost, you haven’t explained that in simple words. What do you mean?
Quote:

5. The claims Karate can't handle this (pick any of their claims) is based on their perception of what karate is and what it does. One simple example, the karate I teach is not deliminted by you can or you can't do at advancing levels. One almost always has something in ones hands in reality, and as we practice environmental defense such as using keys, etc., removing 3 or 4 inches of someone's face as they're trying to shoot in reality is a reasonable response based on our art has no rules.


How many people “shooting in” –(a clear reference to MMA/Wrestling type adversaries????) have you maimed in your training?
Quote:


In a generic sense, in a public mind, karate is number one, and what the attacks represent is envy and a desire to pick off the big boy.


Substantiate that claim. Why is karate “Number 1”?

Quote:

Cause you will find when the next fad art replaces the current fad arts, those arts will be doing the same, I guarantee it. It's what the lessons show over and over.


So BJJ is a fad? MMA is a fad? And karate isn’t….
_________________________
Judokakakakaka!!!!!!!

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#176005 - 08/07/05 07:22 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: kickcatcher]
Ryokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 10
Quote:


Sounds like you don’t really understand the common criticisms of karate mate. You also make many generalizations that wouldn’t be allowed here if they were made from the other ‘side’.





Pray tell, what are the criticisms - from your POV?

Quote:


You are suggesting that karate’s critics don’t know karate? That is naïve and unsubstantiated generalization.





Your generalization is equally naïve and unsubstantiated... if not contradictory. Show us a critic who "knows" karate and I'll show you a critic who "thinks" they know karate, but really doesn't "understand" karate.

Quote:


So the scope of karate is vaster than say MMA???? –MMAers probably being the most vocal detractors of Karate.





"Vaster" (is there such a word? Don't they teach English in the UK anymore?) than your limited knowledge for sure.

Quote:


I’m lost, you haven’t explained that in simple words. What do you mean?





It's quite simple really.... you just need to be able to read to Grade 15 level.

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#176006 - 08/07/05 07:28 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: Ryokan]
kickcatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK
Have you finished with the personal attacks devoid of critical argument?

Vaster not being a word? Classic. Your grip of the English language is clearly not brobdingnagian.


Edited by kickcatcher (08/07/05 08:03 AM)
_________________________
Judokakakakaka!!!!!!!

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#176007 - 08/07/05 08:10 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: kickcatcher]
Ryokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 10
Have you?

Not only is your post full of personal atacks and gross generalizations, it is devoid of any level of intelligence, let alone critical argument.

When you have finished showing us you can use a dictionary, maybe you'll give us the name of that critic huh?

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#176008 - 08/07/05 11:26 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: kickcatcher]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
O Kick,

I see a vast difference between stopping somebody who's attacked me and training. I don't maim people in trianing, on the other hand if attacked I don't follow rules.

As for lingiustic use of language, detest, language is mutable and continually changing, and if it makes communiates in the language game being played there is no right or wrong. Of course you might still be using that quaint older style of the language from your side of the world.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#176009 - 08/07/05 11:52 AM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: Victor Smith]
kickcatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK
O Victor,
Re the maiming, how do you entrain this using your keys against a shoot?

Is karate vaster than MMA?
_________________________
Judokakakakaka!!!!!!!

Top
#176010 - 08/07/05 12:10 PM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: kickcatcher]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Alas Kick,

Burmese stick technique applied to environmental weapons.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#176011 - 08/07/05 04:29 PM Re: Why is karate under attack! [Re: Victor Smith]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I'll unlock this thread as long as it stays within the rules.


Edited by SANCHIN31 (08/08/05 01:27 PM)

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