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#175875 - 08/31/05 06:56 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I am glad that this has turned into a form/kata discussion because I was kinda hitting my head against the wall with the original post.
Benefits that I get from the forms.
1. I learnt how to control my breathing and to breathe during every strenuous exercise/fight like I am walking through the park.
2. Every time I had to learn a new technique I could learn it much faster since they are all contained within the relevant form.
3. I have learnt that positioning is everything, especially in TMAs.
4. I am now starting to realise that the transition in the forms from technique to technique should be done with the same fluidity in fighting and sparring.
5. It relaxes me and focuses me even if I have had the worst day imaginable.
6. Within the forms are contained little gems of realisation that are unveiled to you as you progress. For example, I realise that one of the movements in the first form of wing chun is not what I thought it was but an actual transition from attack to defence. I realised it myself and are now applying it with great effectiveness. It is like a book where the pages reveal it self at the appropriate time.

Many people have no use for them and that does not make them more or less ineffective on the street. The difference between winnning and losing on the street is usualy one punch. Either way the practicing of the form will probably bear little influence on the outcome of a fight. But it plays a big role in the outcome of a fighter, the way you fight, the way you train the way you do things. One way is not better than the other just different.

To say the someone who has been punching a bag for 4 months will beat someone who has been practicing forms for 4 months is obvious. But why have to choose one over the other? Why not do both?
Because it doesnt help your fighting? Does knowing about the origins of MAs? Does knowing about Lee's life? Does talking about it in a forum help your fighting? It is not all about the outcome of a fight, it is also about the outcome of a fighter.

As for the statement that you cannot use kung fu in the ring because of deadly techniques. I would like to say something about that point. To get in a full contact anything goes fight. You need to be goo at all ranges, including grappling. So a kung fu dude who has no experience with grappling may very well get beaten. Its like entering a medley swimming race and only knowing really good breastroke. BUT! Kung fu (unlike muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, and possibly BJJ) was NEVER intended for the ring or be used in the ring. So you do not have super sectret techniques, BUT you DO practice and train techniques that would never be allowed in the ring. As far as I can see from our training, the end is not to win, but to have completely and decisively incapacitated your opponent. Whether that means raking his eyes, grabbing and twisting his testicles, punching him in the throat, breaking his knees, elbows to the back of the head etc etc. That is how we train. There are obviously techniques that can be used in a ring, and I fullyintend to enter competitions once I get a bit better. BUT that is not to say that kung fu guys dont know how to fight.

The statement of a boxer of a year will beat a 15 year kung fu guy, is more a critisism of the way they train respectively, NOT a critisism of kung fu.

The funny thing is that the myths that circulate around kung fu are spread by the very people that critisize those myths. If you come to the kung fu forum do you think that you will see people talking about secret techniques? or about super chi balls? No, it is infact the people who say that kung fu is lying that are lying about kung fu.

And one last thing, not everyone does MAs to be the best street/ring fighter. TMAs are a personal development of body AND mind. Some people do MAs so that they can kick butt easier, some people do it because they have a bad heart and need to do some cardio, some people do it because they want to control their bodies as well as they can, take their physical and mental abilities to the limit and learn as much as possible in the short time they have here on earth.(not refering to aliens, I mean living).
I am not saying one is better or more enlightened, but the world caters for all sorts, and it is just as well if we keep an open mind (I have great difficulty in doing that)


Edited by MAGr (08/31/05 07:09 AM)

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#175876 - 08/31/05 09:04 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: etaks86]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I think you're exactly right. The problem is that kata's value has been hyped so much by TMA, that the inevitable backlash by many in MMA is the opposite extreme, that they're totally worthless. That's not the case. Kata has some useful but limited uses. IMO beginner's training should be heavy in kata, advanced folks should be doing very little and a lot of live training, relegating kata to a sort of break from heavy training without going inactive. And with that I've probably pi$$ed off the TMA crowd also. Oh, well!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175877 - 08/31/05 09:23 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGr]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

...The statement of a boxer of a year will beat a 15 year kung fu guy, is more a critisism of the way they train respectively, NOT a critisism of kung fu...




I'm pretty much in agreement with this, but not quite. There are techniques found in the forms of many TMA that haven't been pressure tested in a long time and won't stand up in the modern real world. It would be a mistake to think that just grafting a boxing training regimen to a TMA without doing an honest review of technique would solve the problem.
OTOH, I've found techniques in the kata of my own system which are almost the same as those that work very well for boxing (E.g.: The hook punch, the uppercut) that have been left by the wayside and are just plain not practiced. This was probably the (Yuck!!!) sport influence. So kata may very well be the "filing system" for TMA techniques. Some have been forgotten because they're arcahic, some useful ones because of "politics". A good, long, honest review of techniques along with a modified training regimen would go a long way to correct the Bruce's observation.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175878 - 08/31/05 02:56 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I never said Kata were useless. I dont think they serve much purpose in a combat sense and it is my belief that kata were not created to train fighters, but as a way to pass an art down through the ages in an organized manner. If you take a look at recent arts, such as Muay Thai or JKD there are no katas. We have better ways to pass on our arts.

I did forms for about ten years. I enjoyed them. They were relaxing. A good way to impress girls walking by. And a good way to practice the multitudes of techniques. Since then I came across a new way of training. A new way of learning and instead of trying to remember those multitudes of techniques I perfect just a select few. Now if I only had a way to impress the ladies.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175879 - 08/31/05 03:03 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, Chen. I was wondering how long it'd take you to wade in.
I have no quarrel with what you said. It's the flip side of the same coin. In fact, I'm constantly being admonished that I'd be a better Karate-ka if only I put more work into my kata. Ha! That'll be the day!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175880 - 09/01/05 01:47 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I had no idea you were a karateka! You hide it very well!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175881 - 09/02/05 01:14 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

I had no idea you were a karateka! You hide it very well!




Humph!! Young whippersnapper!
See, I get to wear these snazzy jammies with a nice black belt to hold 'em up and impress the girls. You just have to make do!

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#175882 - 09/20/05 10:51 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
h3kk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 4
Loc: canada
what Bruce Lee, to me, i think he means of the technique in boxing and wrestling. Boxing you get to develop very keen reactions to dodge and counter attacks, while wrestling, if you cannot out fight a man, take him down. And without any striking abilities learn to destroy your enemy on the ground. Basically this is the way of fighting. However, my qq is why did Bruce Lee invent JKD? The main reason is, because he wanted to be able to adapt to any kind of fighter. So what i think that quote means is that, only learning ONE type of fighting is not enough...being able to combine different sources is the key to become a good fighter. For example, a boxer has so much bulky muscles and cannot even kick or what so ever. Therefore, a martial artist could have the advantage. How? if someone approaches, a quick side kick to the knees would stop a boxer in his tracks. And with all that unnecessary muscles, the movement of the boxer would be slow and "readable". Thus, i do not believe anywhere that Tyson could beat Bruce Lee...Bruce Lee only has to worry about Tysons fists and he has the advantage of kicking...and should i say...can Tyson withstand Bruce Lee's speed and power?

also to add a quick note:
Martial arts is all about form...while boxing and wrestling is leraning the techniques and apply them to combat YOURSELVE, therefore it is you OWN STYLE...where as martial arts...its truly a hard thing for one to express themselves through it because of the constant training of ONE FORM.


Edited by h3kk (09/20/05 10:52 PM)
_________________________
h 3 k k

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#175883 - 09/21/05 07:30 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: h3kk]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

what Bruce Lee, to me, i think he means of the technique in boxing and wrestling. Boxing you get to develop very keen reactions to dodge and counter attacks, while wrestling, if you cannot out fight a man, take him down. And without any striking abilities learn to destroy your enemy on the ground. Basically this is the way of fighting. However, my qq is why did Bruce Lee invent JKD? The main reason is, because he wanted to be able to adapt to any kind of fighter. So what i think that quote means is that, only learning ONE type of fighting is not enough...being able to combine different sources is the key to become a good fighter.




I agree with that much! Bruce was striving for the MMA vehicle that we know today.


Quote:


For example, a boxer has so much bulky muscles and cannot even kick or what so ever.




You're generalizing now. Not "every" boxer is going to be that way.

Quote:


Therefore, a martial artist could have the advantage. How? if someone approaches, a quick side kick to the knees would stop a boxer in his tracks.





You can't know that, without having done it to boxers MANY times over. Otherwise is a theoretical "best guess".

Quote:


And with all that unnecessary muscles, the movement of the boxer would be slow and "readable".





Assumptions like that could be bad for your health.


Quote:


Thus, i do not believe anywhere that Tyson could beat Bruce Lee...Bruce Lee only has to worry about Tysons fists and he has the advantage of kicking...and should i say...can Tyson withstand Bruce Lee's speed and power?




Lee never FOUGHT anyone! How do YOU know he could handle Tyson in his day? Tyson is ALL street fighting with ability in boxing to back it up. Tyson has fought NUMEROUS times in both the ring and the street.

Who did Lee fight?

Don't worship Lee just because he has legend status. He was human just like the rest of us. He never fought and never really sparred anyone of worth beyond the "demo" level. He was a movie star and realized that a loss to someone could spell DOOM for his career. That's why Jet Li never fights and never will. Van Damme - same thing (even though he actually got his ass kicked in a bar in New York).


Quote:


also to add a quick note:
Martial arts is all about form...while boxing and wrestling is leraning the techniques and apply them to combat YOURSELVE, therefore it is you OWN STYLE...where as martial arts...its truly a hard thing for one to express themselves through it because of the constant training of ONE FORM.




Don't quite understand although I do sort of see what you were trying to say (not that I particularly agree).

The individual is supposed to take EVERYTHING he's done and tailor it to his own game. You do this by engaging in sparring (preferably in all ranges) and seeing what works for you and what doesn't. Not everyone does that however.


-John

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#175884 - 09/21/05 01:10 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
Who_FlungPoo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 22
Loc: the state of South Carolina
quetion: so your sayin that if we took tyson and bruce lee or jet li etc. That tyson would completely mutilate the both of them because uve never seen them fight?
_________________________
well... GARSH huhuhuHYUCK!

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