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#175865 - 08/28/05 09:19 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.




Body mechanics for what? Hitting a stationary target?

Body mechanics are STILL better developed through alive training, either on focus pads or on controlled sparring against a MOVING opponent.


-John

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#175866 - 08/29/05 01:11 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hate to steal the thread and turn it into a kata discussion but ive just got to.

There isnt any benefit from kata that you cant get from more efficient training excercises.

Lets take progressive resistance sparring for example. The body mechanics are taught to the student. He utitlizes the technique in different scenarious at increasing increments of resistance. Once he can utilize the technique successfully under high stress situations then he has learned a great deal more about the technique then he ever could in kata. He has learned how to use the technique at various angles. Various speeds and rythms. How to deal with his bodies resonse to adrenaline and stress and how to compensate for that and make the technique effective. He has likely learned how to setup the technique as well as how to counter or defend it. He knows how much speed, power, and snap it will take to be effective and against what kind of opponent it will work against and the kind it will not. And even IF all of those things could be achieved by kata, and I dont think they can, he is still doing it in half the time making him more efficient, faster.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175867 - 08/29/05 11:21 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Butterflypalm -

Quote:

What we are saying is that 'self control and body mechanics' (developed to even a high level of efficiency) alone, by themselves, do not make your "tools" work better or at all. Its the application of those tools in a full resistance environment that bring out the efficacy or inefficacy of those tools you so admire.

If self control and body mechanics are all it takes, then gymnasts and Tango dancers should make great fighters.

Its not WHAT, but HOW, my friend.




Excellent, spot on post.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#175868 - 08/29/05 11:43 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MattJ]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
ooor body mechanics for learning the techniques. then progress to alive, then progress to combat. to say that there is NO benefit from forms is rediculous. to say that you shouldn't practice them because there are other training methods is alot like saying you shouldnt hut the heavy bag because sparring is so much closer to real combat. then the argument is dont spar, just fight. so then anything other than combat is no longer effective training.

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#175869 - 08/30/05 01:06 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Martialway,

I think you are arguing across points here. I happen to agree with Butterflypalm and Matt...but I don't dismiss kata out of hand. Just that one has to define what kata is...if a person practices kata and nothing else..then your point is out of place as there is no efficacy inherent in kata...it is what the practioner takes away from this practice to put along side his other tools in training martial arts.

I would say that kata might help some and others not at all it is their training and the use of what they know that matters. If you deconstruct the tools to learn to fight and gave only the option to practice kata for 3 months and allowed another person to punch and kick pads and bags for 3 months...I know where I would put my money.

On the other hand, all of these activities are done as a part of the martial artist's education to use what he has been taught. What he makes of those tools are his personal expression and ability with his art. Not the tools fault.

Traditional kata may work for some....and I'll let them practice it.

Regards,

-B

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#175870 - 08/30/05 03:04 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Oh, boy! Here I go, out on the limb!
Chen, it's not that I disagree with the criticisms you and the rest of the guys have leveled at kata. It's just that IMHO it's not totally useless. For example, it's a crude but effective way to train a large number of people at the same time. Not the best, but it works.
Another, it works to train body mechanics and coordination without the pressure inherent in live resistance. Yes, granted, live resistance is how you test and refine your technique. But I for one am grateful I learned to punch and kick without a purposeful opponent bearing down. It made it SOOO much easier to learn.
Lastly, it's one viable alternative to inactivity when you're injured. I tend towards kata when I've accumulated several dings and bangs, and common sense finally sinks in that I'd be wise to let them heal.
I.e.: Just another training tool, not the end all, be all of training.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175871 - 08/30/05 03:37 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
While i understand the basic reasons for kata and do agree that they have there own rewards, it's my humble opinion that without sparring such as in boxing then your martial art is not really much of a fighting art. or at least you won't get the same results as you would sparring with people in a boxing like manner. I think that kata are not useless but i do believe that boxing like sparring is far more important then kata. that's just my opinion. In my opinion kata should be used for learning the technic then you can take your technic and contact spar so that you have a understanding of how to use them in a real fight. I believe that sparring is a must to anybody wanting to be able to defend them selves in a fight. So it's my opinon that a good mix of boxing and martial arts is the best way at least for me. peace

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#175872 - 08/30/05 09:44 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Butterfly -

Quote:

Traditional kata may work for some....and I'll let them practice it.




Exactly. My specific experience has been that forms work is of limited value. Other people may find some utilitarian benefit to it, and to them I say BRAVO.

If it works for you, keep on with it. If it doesn't, there are other ways to work out.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#175873 - 08/31/05 12:59 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
taiboxer Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 1
being the newbee iam and being only 16 im sure many of you know much more than i, but it is a simple principal. Boxing is very effective and very easy to atain a good skill level with some practice, but martial arts are very indepth and take years to master even somwhat basic principals aswere boxing is much more str8 forward. year for year boxing is the most effective and what i mean by that is if you take the exact same man and train him in boxing hard for one year and then take an exact copy of that man and train him hmmm, lets say kung fu, or drunk'n fist, the boxer will simply walk all over them because of the ease of learning and gaining skill.....ne way thats what i think, give me somfeedback on my theory.....my user name is taiboxer

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#175874 - 08/31/05 01:18 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: taiboxer]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
dont get me wrong, katas are NOT practicing combat. and ive never heard of anyone JUST practicing katas and not hitting pads or sparring. gotta practice the strokes before you can paint the picture.

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