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#175855 - 08/06/05 06:05 AM Boxing or Martial Art?
curious Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 1
Hello, nice forum! I was wondering what does this mean when Bruce Lee himself said...

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Does this mean boxing is more advance and powerful than Martial Art?

I actually came across another forum that someone mentioned "kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts...".

Here is the original post:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tyson would destroy Bruce Lee. (Even present day quasi-washedup Tyson.)

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours."

-Bruce Lee

Does anyone honestly believe a 130 pound man with incredibly limited grappling training (did a tiny bit with Gene Lebell) could compete in a fight with a heavyweight champ?

And romeo, there really isn't much to be said. My qualms with all these kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts. They contain "super deadly" and "super secret" moves, that only someone who's been training for 10 years can possibly master! I don't know about you, but that's just screaming (EDITED)

Harnessing force, concentrating energy? Give me a break. There are no "secret techniques" that take years and years to master.

If you say you can fight, do it in the ring/octagon. And if your style is too deadly for it, then you're full of [censored].
-------------------------------------------------------
From: http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/49990/page//fpart/18/vc/1
(a few post down)


Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.


Edited by Chen Zen (08/07/05 12:55 AM)

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#175856 - 08/06/05 09:12 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
What is EVER more important than learning some "style" is your training methodology. What you're training isn't quite as important as HOW you're training.

In boxing, the training is ALWAYS "alive". This isn't quite the case with a GREAT many martial arts schools. If you're training alive (which means, having the qaulities of realistic timing, motion and energy/resistance from your opponent), then you'll be reasonably served by your martial arts training. If you're NOT training alive, that's another story and you should realize that you probably cannot fight very well, against those who DO train alive.

Again, boxers train alive. Do you?


-John

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#175857 - 08/06/05 06:07 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
You should understand that a MARTIAL ARTS is more advanced than boxing or wrestling. I can adapt ALIVE training as JKOGAS is mentioning to my TMA training. Boxing trains works on simple like a jab, hook, straight, combos/variations, footwork etc... the thing is, I already know all that to a much higher degree and with much more understanding of distance, balance, body mechnanics, footwork, movement etc... which I learned in the basics of my TMA. Boxing is more reliable on timing which includes dodging, stepping etc... which you get 80% from in sparring in the ring. And most of it is hitting the bag, sparring, and physical training such as skipping rope and lifting weights which is very important. But I also train everyday, I do 150 pushups a day, 200 situps etc... and run for a couple miles, this will improve your training anywhere you go. In the beginning of my training, the first time I sparred with one of my training partners full contact, it was obvious to me about the features of reality (just as JKOGAS mentioned, resisting opponent etc...). I adapt alot of my TMA stuff to a more realistic approach, simple was the key, quick and with as much power and speed as possible without the real fancy technical stuff masters with 25 years of experience could only pull off. So you master the art of SIMPLE, by sparring, which is in fact like mastering boxing, which rather instead makes you figure out reality like a TMA would, you step into reality right from the beginning of training, and because of that, 6 months of boxing would hold more value than even 2 years of TMA.

tookien1

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#175858 - 08/21/05 06:14 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I like what you guys had to say. I agree for the most part.

Fighting styles that are high intensity and high impact are going to be difficult to overcome if you haven't conditioned yourself to take punnishment.

Or maybee it's not so much a fighters style but their mentallity.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#175859 - 08/21/05 07:11 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
Quote:

Hello, nice forum! I was wondering what does this mean when Bruce Lee himself said...

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Does this mean boxing is more advance and powerful than Martial Art?

I actually came across another forum that someone mentioned "kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts...".

Here is the original post:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tyson would destroy Bruce Lee. (Even present day quasi-washedup Tyson.)

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours."

-Bruce Lee

Does anyone honestly believe a 130 pound man with incredibly limited grappling training (did a tiny bit with Gene Lebell) could compete in a fight with a heavyweight champ?

And romeo, there really isn't much to be said. My qualms with all these kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts. They contain "super deadly" and "super secret" moves, that only someone who's been training for 10 years can possibly master! I don't know about you, but that's just screaming (EDITED)

Harnessing force, concentrating energy? Give me a break. There are no "secret techniques" that take years and years to master.

If you say you can fight, do it in the ring/octagon. And if your style is too deadly for it, then you're full of [censored].
-------------------------------------------------------
From: http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/49990/page//fpart/18/vc/1
(a few post down)


Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.


Actually some of that information is incorrect. Bruce had fairly extensive grapplign tainging as he explored many different martial arts before deciding to create his own style: namely Jeet Kune Do. But I am pleased that you have done some research.
_________________________
I'm starting afresh.

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#175860 - 08/26/05 12:21 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.





What I humbly believe BL said was not that boxing was 'better' than MA, but because of the highly structured way in which TMA was and is still taught, it has turned the traditional martial artist into "ice" -- hit him in the right place and fast enough, they will shatter. BL always said (though not originating from him) be like 'water'

The "fault" with TMA is the unnecessarily huge syllabus, which if done all the way through (taking maybe 15 or more years) can be highly effective; you have to start at age 5 and train perhaps everyday.

Boxing, on the other hand, keeps things to the minimal, but with such a high degree of intense repetitions, that what works, will work very well and you don't need 15 years for it to start working for you.

So if two persons of roughly equal physical abilities, and one trains at TMA and the other boxing for say 4 years, the boxer will shatter the TMAist, who by then will still be trying to perfect his basic kata.

The 'fighting' part of TMA starts very late and if trained right (BL himself did not finish the whole Wing Chun syllabus, such as the wooden dummy set) at the 15th year, I'll bet on the TMAist.

Bl said the things he said about TMA was because he did not reached a very level in the TMA and had to, as it were, 're-invent' the MA wheel all over again by himself. It would be too big an assumption for BL to imagine that after so many centuries of MA research & development in China, India, Okinawa, Phillipines, Indonesia that it has to wait for him to come along to tell everybody what needs fixing and why.

Having said that I do concede that the past 'insularity' of TMA has turned the art and the traditional martial artist into solid blocks of ice; but if you can, through an open-minded approach to other combat ideas (be it boxing)(BL's one great asset) then the 'water' you get from TMA will be of a very high quality.

Yes, I agree totally with the "it is not what you train, BUT ALSO how you train that counts"
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#175861 - 08/26/05 11:47 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
ok any time you put a cruddy boxer in with a great karateka or what have you the outcome is obvious. and like wise you put mohammed ali in with joe schmoe mcdojo someone is gonna get a whoopin. dont judge an art by its practitioners. isnt boxing an ma anyway?

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#175862 - 08/27/05 08:16 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Great post Butterfly. You get it.

It isn't the "art" that you study - it's how you TRAIN that is more important. You have to train athletically and alive. Practicing forms won't make you a better fighter. You have to train against an opponent who is resisting and challenging you. Boxers train that way all the time. Naturally when they fight against people who don't have that same experience, they're going to SLAUGHTER them! It's common sense. If you're into Karate and train alive, you'll do the same thing.

I know most people realize this sort of thing...BUT...it's always a good idea to step outside of your "style" and spar with people from other disciplines. This was the concept that the UFC was molded from.

Regardless of your art, spar with boxers, wrestlers, judo guys, BJJ guys, karate guys, etc. Learn, share and grow - because you WILL if you do. Just be prepared to put your ego on the line.


-John

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#175863 - 08/28/05 02:35 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.

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#175864 - 08/28/05 05:49 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.




What we are saying is that 'self control and body mechanics' (developed to even a high level of efficiency) alone, by themselves, do not make your "tools" work better or at all. Its the application of those tools in a full resistance environment that bring out the efficacy or inefficacy of those tools you so admire.

If self control and body mechanics are all it takes, then gymnasts and Tango dancers should make great fighters.

Its not WHAT, but HOW, my friend.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#175865 - 08/28/05 09:19 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.




Body mechanics for what? Hitting a stationary target?

Body mechanics are STILL better developed through alive training, either on focus pads or on controlled sparring against a MOVING opponent.


-John

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#175866 - 08/29/05 01:11 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hate to steal the thread and turn it into a kata discussion but ive just got to.

There isnt any benefit from kata that you cant get from more efficient training excercises.

Lets take progressive resistance sparring for example. The body mechanics are taught to the student. He utitlizes the technique in different scenarious at increasing increments of resistance. Once he can utilize the technique successfully under high stress situations then he has learned a great deal more about the technique then he ever could in kata. He has learned how to use the technique at various angles. Various speeds and rythms. How to deal with his bodies resonse to adrenaline and stress and how to compensate for that and make the technique effective. He has likely learned how to setup the technique as well as how to counter or defend it. He knows how much speed, power, and snap it will take to be effective and against what kind of opponent it will work against and the kind it will not. And even IF all of those things could be achieved by kata, and I dont think they can, he is still doing it in half the time making him more efficient, faster.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175867 - 08/29/05 11:21 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Butterflypalm -

Quote:

What we are saying is that 'self control and body mechanics' (developed to even a high level of efficiency) alone, by themselves, do not make your "tools" work better or at all. Its the application of those tools in a full resistance environment that bring out the efficacy or inefficacy of those tools you so admire.

If self control and body mechanics are all it takes, then gymnasts and Tango dancers should make great fighters.

Its not WHAT, but HOW, my friend.




Excellent, spot on post.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#175868 - 08/29/05 11:43 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MattJ]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
ooor body mechanics for learning the techniques. then progress to alive, then progress to combat. to say that there is NO benefit from forms is rediculous. to say that you shouldn't practice them because there are other training methods is alot like saying you shouldnt hut the heavy bag because sparring is so much closer to real combat. then the argument is dont spar, just fight. so then anything other than combat is no longer effective training.

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#175869 - 08/30/05 01:06 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Martialway,

I think you are arguing across points here. I happen to agree with Butterflypalm and Matt...but I don't dismiss kata out of hand. Just that one has to define what kata is...if a person practices kata and nothing else..then your point is out of place as there is no efficacy inherent in kata...it is what the practioner takes away from this practice to put along side his other tools in training martial arts.

I would say that kata might help some and others not at all it is their training and the use of what they know that matters. If you deconstruct the tools to learn to fight and gave only the option to practice kata for 3 months and allowed another person to punch and kick pads and bags for 3 months...I know where I would put my money.

On the other hand, all of these activities are done as a part of the martial artist's education to use what he has been taught. What he makes of those tools are his personal expression and ability with his art. Not the tools fault.

Traditional kata may work for some....and I'll let them practice it.

Regards,

-B

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#175870 - 08/30/05 03:04 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Oh, boy! Here I go, out on the limb!
Chen, it's not that I disagree with the criticisms you and the rest of the guys have leveled at kata. It's just that IMHO it's not totally useless. For example, it's a crude but effective way to train a large number of people at the same time. Not the best, but it works.
Another, it works to train body mechanics and coordination without the pressure inherent in live resistance. Yes, granted, live resistance is how you test and refine your technique. But I for one am grateful I learned to punch and kick without a purposeful opponent bearing down. It made it SOOO much easier to learn.
Lastly, it's one viable alternative to inactivity when you're injured. I tend towards kata when I've accumulated several dings and bangs, and common sense finally sinks in that I'd be wise to let them heal.
I.e.: Just another training tool, not the end all, be all of training.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175871 - 08/30/05 03:37 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
While i understand the basic reasons for kata and do agree that they have there own rewards, it's my humble opinion that without sparring such as in boxing then your martial art is not really much of a fighting art. or at least you won't get the same results as you would sparring with people in a boxing like manner. I think that kata are not useless but i do believe that boxing like sparring is far more important then kata. that's just my opinion. In my opinion kata should be used for learning the technic then you can take your technic and contact spar so that you have a understanding of how to use them in a real fight. I believe that sparring is a must to anybody wanting to be able to defend them selves in a fight. So it's my opinon that a good mix of boxing and martial arts is the best way at least for me. peace

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#175872 - 08/30/05 09:44 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Butterfly -

Quote:

Traditional kata may work for some....and I'll let them practice it.




Exactly. My specific experience has been that forms work is of limited value. Other people may find some utilitarian benefit to it, and to them I say BRAVO.

If it works for you, keep on with it. If it doesn't, there are other ways to work out.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#175873 - 08/31/05 12:59 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
taiboxer Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 1
being the newbee iam and being only 16 im sure many of you know much more than i, but it is a simple principal. Boxing is very effective and very easy to atain a good skill level with some practice, but martial arts are very indepth and take years to master even somwhat basic principals aswere boxing is much more str8 forward. year for year boxing is the most effective and what i mean by that is if you take the exact same man and train him in boxing hard for one year and then take an exact copy of that man and train him hmmm, lets say kung fu, or drunk'n fist, the boxer will simply walk all over them because of the ease of learning and gaining skill.....ne way thats what i think, give me somfeedback on my theory.....my user name is taiboxer

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#175874 - 08/31/05 01:18 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: taiboxer]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
dont get me wrong, katas are NOT practicing combat. and ive never heard of anyone JUST practicing katas and not hitting pads or sparring. gotta practice the strokes before you can paint the picture.

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#175875 - 08/31/05 06:56 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I am glad that this has turned into a form/kata discussion because I was kinda hitting my head against the wall with the original post.
Benefits that I get from the forms.
1. I learnt how to control my breathing and to breathe during every strenuous exercise/fight like I am walking through the park.
2. Every time I had to learn a new technique I could learn it much faster since they are all contained within the relevant form.
3. I have learnt that positioning is everything, especially in TMAs.
4. I am now starting to realise that the transition in the forms from technique to technique should be done with the same fluidity in fighting and sparring.
5. It relaxes me and focuses me even if I have had the worst day imaginable.
6. Within the forms are contained little gems of realisation that are unveiled to you as you progress. For example, I realise that one of the movements in the first form of wing chun is not what I thought it was but an actual transition from attack to defence. I realised it myself and are now applying it with great effectiveness. It is like a book where the pages reveal it self at the appropriate time.

Many people have no use for them and that does not make them more or less ineffective on the street. The difference between winnning and losing on the street is usualy one punch. Either way the practicing of the form will probably bear little influence on the outcome of a fight. But it plays a big role in the outcome of a fighter, the way you fight, the way you train the way you do things. One way is not better than the other just different.

To say the someone who has been punching a bag for 4 months will beat someone who has been practicing forms for 4 months is obvious. But why have to choose one over the other? Why not do both?
Because it doesnt help your fighting? Does knowing about the origins of MAs? Does knowing about Lee's life? Does talking about it in a forum help your fighting? It is not all about the outcome of a fight, it is also about the outcome of a fighter.

As for the statement that you cannot use kung fu in the ring because of deadly techniques. I would like to say something about that point. To get in a full contact anything goes fight. You need to be goo at all ranges, including grappling. So a kung fu dude who has no experience with grappling may very well get beaten. Its like entering a medley swimming race and only knowing really good breastroke. BUT! Kung fu (unlike muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, and possibly BJJ) was NEVER intended for the ring or be used in the ring. So you do not have super sectret techniques, BUT you DO practice and train techniques that would never be allowed in the ring. As far as I can see from our training, the end is not to win, but to have completely and decisively incapacitated your opponent. Whether that means raking his eyes, grabbing and twisting his testicles, punching him in the throat, breaking his knees, elbows to the back of the head etc etc. That is how we train. There are obviously techniques that can be used in a ring, and I fullyintend to enter competitions once I get a bit better. BUT that is not to say that kung fu guys dont know how to fight.

The statement of a boxer of a year will beat a 15 year kung fu guy, is more a critisism of the way they train respectively, NOT a critisism of kung fu.

The funny thing is that the myths that circulate around kung fu are spread by the very people that critisize those myths. If you come to the kung fu forum do you think that you will see people talking about secret techniques? or about super chi balls? No, it is infact the people who say that kung fu is lying that are lying about kung fu.

And one last thing, not everyone does MAs to be the best street/ring fighter. TMAs are a personal development of body AND mind. Some people do MAs so that they can kick butt easier, some people do it because they have a bad heart and need to do some cardio, some people do it because they want to control their bodies as well as they can, take their physical and mental abilities to the limit and learn as much as possible in the short time they have here on earth.(not refering to aliens, I mean living).
I am not saying one is better or more enlightened, but the world caters for all sorts, and it is just as well if we keep an open mind (I have great difficulty in doing that)


Edited by MAGr (08/31/05 07:09 AM)

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#175876 - 08/31/05 09:04 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: etaks86]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I think you're exactly right. The problem is that kata's value has been hyped so much by TMA, that the inevitable backlash by many in MMA is the opposite extreme, that they're totally worthless. That's not the case. Kata has some useful but limited uses. IMO beginner's training should be heavy in kata, advanced folks should be doing very little and a lot of live training, relegating kata to a sort of break from heavy training without going inactive. And with that I've probably pi$$ed off the TMA crowd also. Oh, well!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175877 - 08/31/05 09:23 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGr]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

...The statement of a boxer of a year will beat a 15 year kung fu guy, is more a critisism of the way they train respectively, NOT a critisism of kung fu...




I'm pretty much in agreement with this, but not quite. There are techniques found in the forms of many TMA that haven't been pressure tested in a long time and won't stand up in the modern real world. It would be a mistake to think that just grafting a boxing training regimen to a TMA without doing an honest review of technique would solve the problem.
OTOH, I've found techniques in the kata of my own system which are almost the same as those that work very well for boxing (E.g.: The hook punch, the uppercut) that have been left by the wayside and are just plain not practiced. This was probably the (Yuck!!!) sport influence. So kata may very well be the "filing system" for TMA techniques. Some have been forgotten because they're arcahic, some useful ones because of "politics". A good, long, honest review of techniques along with a modified training regimen would go a long way to correct the Bruce's observation.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175878 - 08/31/05 02:56 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I never said Kata were useless. I dont think they serve much purpose in a combat sense and it is my belief that kata were not created to train fighters, but as a way to pass an art down through the ages in an organized manner. If you take a look at recent arts, such as Muay Thai or JKD there are no katas. We have better ways to pass on our arts.

I did forms for about ten years. I enjoyed them. They were relaxing. A good way to impress girls walking by. And a good way to practice the multitudes of techniques. Since then I came across a new way of training. A new way of learning and instead of trying to remember those multitudes of techniques I perfect just a select few. Now if I only had a way to impress the ladies.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175879 - 08/31/05 03:03 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, Chen. I was wondering how long it'd take you to wade in.
I have no quarrel with what you said. It's the flip side of the same coin. In fact, I'm constantly being admonished that I'd be a better Karate-ka if only I put more work into my kata. Ha! That'll be the day!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#175880 - 09/01/05 01:47 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I had no idea you were a karateka! You hide it very well!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#175881 - 09/02/05 01:14 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

I had no idea you were a karateka! You hide it very well!




Humph!! Young whippersnapper!
See, I get to wear these snazzy jammies with a nice black belt to hold 'em up and impress the girls. You just have to make do!

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#175882 - 09/20/05 10:51 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
h3kk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 4
Loc: canada
what Bruce Lee, to me, i think he means of the technique in boxing and wrestling. Boxing you get to develop very keen reactions to dodge and counter attacks, while wrestling, if you cannot out fight a man, take him down. And without any striking abilities learn to destroy your enemy on the ground. Basically this is the way of fighting. However, my qq is why did Bruce Lee invent JKD? The main reason is, because he wanted to be able to adapt to any kind of fighter. So what i think that quote means is that, only learning ONE type of fighting is not enough...being able to combine different sources is the key to become a good fighter. For example, a boxer has so much bulky muscles and cannot even kick or what so ever. Therefore, a martial artist could have the advantage. How? if someone approaches, a quick side kick to the knees would stop a boxer in his tracks. And with all that unnecessary muscles, the movement of the boxer would be slow and "readable". Thus, i do not believe anywhere that Tyson could beat Bruce Lee...Bruce Lee only has to worry about Tysons fists and he has the advantage of kicking...and should i say...can Tyson withstand Bruce Lee's speed and power?

also to add a quick note:
Martial arts is all about form...while boxing and wrestling is leraning the techniques and apply them to combat YOURSELVE, therefore it is you OWN STYLE...where as martial arts...its truly a hard thing for one to express themselves through it because of the constant training of ONE FORM.


Edited by h3kk (09/20/05 10:52 PM)
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h 3 k k

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#175883 - 09/21/05 07:30 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: h3kk]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

what Bruce Lee, to me, i think he means of the technique in boxing and wrestling. Boxing you get to develop very keen reactions to dodge and counter attacks, while wrestling, if you cannot out fight a man, take him down. And without any striking abilities learn to destroy your enemy on the ground. Basically this is the way of fighting. However, my qq is why did Bruce Lee invent JKD? The main reason is, because he wanted to be able to adapt to any kind of fighter. So what i think that quote means is that, only learning ONE type of fighting is not enough...being able to combine different sources is the key to become a good fighter.




I agree with that much! Bruce was striving for the MMA vehicle that we know today.


Quote:


For example, a boxer has so much bulky muscles and cannot even kick or what so ever.




You're generalizing now. Not "every" boxer is going to be that way.

Quote:


Therefore, a martial artist could have the advantage. How? if someone approaches, a quick side kick to the knees would stop a boxer in his tracks.





You can't know that, without having done it to boxers MANY times over. Otherwise is a theoretical "best guess".

Quote:


And with all that unnecessary muscles, the movement of the boxer would be slow and "readable".





Assumptions like that could be bad for your health.


Quote:


Thus, i do not believe anywhere that Tyson could beat Bruce Lee...Bruce Lee only has to worry about Tysons fists and he has the advantage of kicking...and should i say...can Tyson withstand Bruce Lee's speed and power?




Lee never FOUGHT anyone! How do YOU know he could handle Tyson in his day? Tyson is ALL street fighting with ability in boxing to back it up. Tyson has fought NUMEROUS times in both the ring and the street.

Who did Lee fight?

Don't worship Lee just because he has legend status. He was human just like the rest of us. He never fought and never really sparred anyone of worth beyond the "demo" level. He was a movie star and realized that a loss to someone could spell DOOM for his career. That's why Jet Li never fights and never will. Van Damme - same thing (even though he actually got his ass kicked in a bar in New York).


Quote:


also to add a quick note:
Martial arts is all about form...while boxing and wrestling is leraning the techniques and apply them to combat YOURSELVE, therefore it is you OWN STYLE...where as martial arts...its truly a hard thing for one to express themselves through it because of the constant training of ONE FORM.




Don't quite understand although I do sort of see what you were trying to say (not that I particularly agree).

The individual is supposed to take EVERYTHING he's done and tailor it to his own game. You do this by engaging in sparring (preferably in all ranges) and seeing what works for you and what doesn't. Not everyone does that however.


-John

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#175884 - 09/21/05 01:10 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
Who_FlungPoo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 22
Loc: the state of South Carolina
quetion: so your sayin that if we took tyson and bruce lee or jet li etc. That tyson would completely mutilate the both of them because uve never seen them fight?
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well... GARSH huhuhuHYUCK!

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#175885 - 09/22/05 09:52 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Who_FlungPoo]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'm saying that Tyson HAS fought. Lee maybe "sparred a little" and Jet Li...probably less.

Tyson made a LIVING fighting. What did Lee and Li do for a living? They made movies.

It's obvious, IF, you're not hung up on myth and legend.


-John

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#175886 - 09/23/05 12:34 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
Marz Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Iraq
Just one small correction. Lee DID fight some martial arts "master" and won. However, he was so exhausted at the end of the fight and, feeling the fight should not have lasted so long, thought there should be a better, more efficient way. Hence, the beginings of JKD.

Now, I agree with what you're saying concerning Tyson. Iron Mike was/is a baaad dude. I wouldn't bet against him even today in his current state. Bruce Lee was an incredible thinker/martial artist, but one well known fight doesn't make him a world champion arse kicker. Not to say he COULDN'T win..........anyone can be beat on any given day. ANYONE. Tyson, Lee, Gracie, Shamrock.......no one is invincible.

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#175887 - 09/23/05 10:27 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Marz]
Who_FlungPoo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 22
Loc: the state of South Carolina
Except for ME AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... o dear the only reason I previously posted that is just to defend this thought:I don't think that a martial artist works to perfect his art and build up that kinda legendary status, to just be glass during a fight... i mean u call em legends and such for a reason.
_________________________
well... GARSH huhuhuHYUCK!

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#175888 - 09/23/05 03:22 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: Who_FlungPoo]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I agree with a lot of the comments here. In particular, I don't think BL was criticising MA as such, rather the "classical mess" it had gotten itself into.

The thing with boxing and wrestling is that they both teach very different ways of moving and fighting.They are also taught as practical application from day one. On top of this the practice of both involves a kind of body strengthening which isn't always/necessarily present in martial arts practice.

For example; you can spend an hour moving up and down a hall kia-ing and punching a straight punch which nobody ever uses in reality. You spend months and years trying to perfect this. In boxing you learn to throw and move to avoid punches as an applied technique. Perhaps this style of learning is some difference between a western approach and an eastern approach.

The MA Gary Speirs once commented that he gave up classical karate when he was training in Japan. He had three world class masters standing in front of him "and all they could do was tell me that my reverse punch was wrong".

Of course, the other side of martial arts is the search for perfection and self-improvement. However, arguably this is an aspect of an art which has time for this kind of thing. It is also the sign of a system which has become an art form and has been heavily codified. How many of us know people who LOOK great but can't do the business when the balloon goes up?

Wrestling, likewise, teaches from direct contact. When I was learning backhold wrestling I had the (mis)fortune to be training with a world champion backhold wrestler. He used to tell me what technique I was considering before I had even started to apply it. He reckoned my body tensed up in a certain way before application. This is like sticky hands/ push hands sensitivity. It took a long time for him to get to that level but it was something he had been constantly acquiring through experience, not through a codified system where things were taught to syllabus.

Kata are useful to a point, however there is always the problem of stiff kata application which is unrealistic when applied to a live situation. You just don't have time to go into the full artisitic move. OK, so if you can do it fully in kata it may mean you are going to be able to do a revised move for real, but how long is it going to take you to transcend the kata and make it your own? In a world where most of us spend a few months before a grading and then moving onto the next one, how effective is kata training on actual combat application.

I once asked Freestyle karate champion Alfie lewis why he didn't use kata in Freestyle. He said that he felt it was not a useful tool for him. Why not just shadow-box. This he felt was freestyle kata and more useful as it was nearer to the kind of movement and breathing exercises which he would use in combat/competition.

The thing with wrestling (and boxing to, I suppose), as my backhold coach commented to me, is that it has developed through practice for centuries and nothing is taught which is impractical. There is no argument about whether a move is practical or not. If it isn't practical the wrestler loses and so impractical techniques are dropped. Wrestling (freestyle, catch, judo etc) allows the wrestler to grab legs wherever they can be grabbed. Getting close in allows all sorts of illicit elbows and heads to be used (there are illegal techniques in wrestling too). Boxing allows the odd thumb in the eye etc. I think what Lee was on about was that all the nasty little tricks could be learned very nicely in boxing in wrestling a lot more quickly than training classically in MA.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#175889 - 10/07/05 08:56 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
I think Bruce was talking about martial arts at that time. It has come a long way since then...thanks to Bruce.

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