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#175855 - 08/06/05 06:05 AM Boxing or Martial Art?
curious Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 1
Hello, nice forum! I was wondering what does this mean when Bruce Lee himself said...

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Does this mean boxing is more advance and powerful than Martial Art?

I actually came across another forum that someone mentioned "kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts...".

Here is the original post:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tyson would destroy Bruce Lee. (Even present day quasi-washedup Tyson.)

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours."

-Bruce Lee

Does anyone honestly believe a 130 pound man with incredibly limited grappling training (did a tiny bit with Gene Lebell) could compete in a fight with a heavyweight champ?

And romeo, there really isn't much to be said. My qualms with all these kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts. They contain "super deadly" and "super secret" moves, that only someone who's been training for 10 years can possibly master! I don't know about you, but that's just screaming (EDITED)

Harnessing force, concentrating energy? Give me a break. There are no "secret techniques" that take years and years to master.

If you say you can fight, do it in the ring/octagon. And if your style is too deadly for it, then you're full of [censored].
-------------------------------------------------------
From: http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/49990/page//fpart/18/vc/1
(a few post down)


Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.


Edited by Chen Zen (08/07/05 12:55 AM)

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#175856 - 08/06/05 09:12 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
What is EVER more important than learning some "style" is your training methodology. What you're training isn't quite as important as HOW you're training.

In boxing, the training is ALWAYS "alive". This isn't quite the case with a GREAT many martial arts schools. If you're training alive (which means, having the qaulities of realistic timing, motion and energy/resistance from your opponent), then you'll be reasonably served by your martial arts training. If you're NOT training alive, that's another story and you should realize that you probably cannot fight very well, against those who DO train alive.

Again, boxers train alive. Do you?


-John

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#175857 - 08/06/05 06:07 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
You should understand that a MARTIAL ARTS is more advanced than boxing or wrestling. I can adapt ALIVE training as JKOGAS is mentioning to my TMA training. Boxing trains works on simple like a jab, hook, straight, combos/variations, footwork etc... the thing is, I already know all that to a much higher degree and with much more understanding of distance, balance, body mechnanics, footwork, movement etc... which I learned in the basics of my TMA. Boxing is more reliable on timing which includes dodging, stepping etc... which you get 80% from in sparring in the ring. And most of it is hitting the bag, sparring, and physical training such as skipping rope and lifting weights which is very important. But I also train everyday, I do 150 pushups a day, 200 situps etc... and run for a couple miles, this will improve your training anywhere you go. In the beginning of my training, the first time I sparred with one of my training partners full contact, it was obvious to me about the features of reality (just as JKOGAS mentioned, resisting opponent etc...). I adapt alot of my TMA stuff to a more realistic approach, simple was the key, quick and with as much power and speed as possible without the real fancy technical stuff masters with 25 years of experience could only pull off. So you master the art of SIMPLE, by sparring, which is in fact like mastering boxing, which rather instead makes you figure out reality like a TMA would, you step into reality right from the beginning of training, and because of that, 6 months of boxing would hold more value than even 2 years of TMA.

tookien1

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#175858 - 08/21/05 06:14 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I like what you guys had to say. I agree for the most part.

Fighting styles that are high intensity and high impact are going to be difficult to overcome if you haven't conditioned yourself to take punnishment.

Or maybee it's not so much a fighters style but their mentallity.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#175859 - 08/21/05 07:11 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
Quote:

Hello, nice forum! I was wondering what does this mean when Bruce Lee himself said...

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Does this mean boxing is more advance and powerful than Martial Art?

I actually came across another forum that someone mentioned "kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts...".

Here is the original post:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tyson would destroy Bruce Lee. (Even present day quasi-washedup Tyson.)

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours."

-Bruce Lee

Does anyone honestly believe a 130 pound man with incredibly limited grappling training (did a tiny bit with Gene Lebell) could compete in a fight with a heavyweight champ?

And romeo, there really isn't much to be said. My qualms with all these kung-fu styles is that they advertise esoteric knowledge of sorts. They contain "super deadly" and "super secret" moves, that only someone who's been training for 10 years can possibly master! I don't know about you, but that's just screaming (EDITED)

Harnessing force, concentrating energy? Give me a break. There are no "secret techniques" that take years and years to master.

If you say you can fight, do it in the ring/octagon. And if your style is too deadly for it, then you're full of [censored].
-------------------------------------------------------
From: http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/49990/page//fpart/18/vc/1
(a few post down)


Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.


Actually some of that information is incorrect. Bruce had fairly extensive grapplign tainging as he explored many different martial arts before deciding to create his own style: namely Jeet Kune Do. But I am pleased that you have done some research.
_________________________
I'm starting afresh.

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#175860 - 08/26/05 12:21 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: curious]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

"To beat a martial artist that's been training for 15 years, all you need to do is box and wrestle for 1 year, and he's yours." Bruce Lee.

Maybe boxing is a better form of combat than Martial Art, can anyone enlighten me.





What I humbly believe BL said was not that boxing was 'better' than MA, but because of the highly structured way in which TMA was and is still taught, it has turned the traditional martial artist into "ice" -- hit him in the right place and fast enough, they will shatter. BL always said (though not originating from him) be like 'water'

The "fault" with TMA is the unnecessarily huge syllabus, which if done all the way through (taking maybe 15 or more years) can be highly effective; you have to start at age 5 and train perhaps everyday.

Boxing, on the other hand, keeps things to the minimal, but with such a high degree of intense repetitions, that what works, will work very well and you don't need 15 years for it to start working for you.

So if two persons of roughly equal physical abilities, and one trains at TMA and the other boxing for say 4 years, the boxer will shatter the TMAist, who by then will still be trying to perfect his basic kata.

The 'fighting' part of TMA starts very late and if trained right (BL himself did not finish the whole Wing Chun syllabus, such as the wooden dummy set) at the 15th year, I'll bet on the TMAist.

Bl said the things he said about TMA was because he did not reached a very level in the TMA and had to, as it were, 're-invent' the MA wheel all over again by himself. It would be too big an assumption for BL to imagine that after so many centuries of MA research & development in China, India, Okinawa, Phillipines, Indonesia that it has to wait for him to come along to tell everybody what needs fixing and why.

Having said that I do concede that the past 'insularity' of TMA has turned the art and the traditional martial artist into solid blocks of ice; but if you can, through an open-minded approach to other combat ideas (be it boxing)(BL's one great asset) then the 'water' you get from TMA will be of a very high quality.

Yes, I agree totally with the "it is not what you train, BUT ALSO how you train that counts"
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#175861 - 08/26/05 11:47 PM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
ok any time you put a cruddy boxer in with a great karateka or what have you the outcome is obvious. and like wise you put mohammed ali in with joe schmoe mcdojo someone is gonna get a whoopin. dont judge an art by its practitioners. isnt boxing an ma anyway?

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#175862 - 08/27/05 08:16 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Great post Butterfly. You get it.

It isn't the "art" that you study - it's how you TRAIN that is more important. You have to train athletically and alive. Practicing forms won't make you a better fighter. You have to train against an opponent who is resisting and challenging you. Boxers train that way all the time. Naturally when they fight against people who don't have that same experience, they're going to SLAUGHTER them! It's common sense. If you're into Karate and train alive, you'll do the same thing.

I know most people realize this sort of thing...BUT...it's always a good idea to step outside of your "style" and spar with people from other disciplines. This was the concept that the UFC was molded from.

Regardless of your art, spar with boxers, wrestlers, judo guys, BJJ guys, karate guys, etc. Learn, share and grow - because you WILL if you do. Just be prepared to put your ego on the line.


-John

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#175863 - 08/28/05 02:35 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: JKogas]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.

Top
#175864 - 08/28/05 05:49 AM Re: Boxing or Martial Art? [Re: martialway]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

people never understand that forms(kata) training isnt practicing fighting, it developeing self control and body mechanics to make your tools work better.




What we are saying is that 'self control and body mechanics' (developed to even a high level of efficiency) alone, by themselves, do not make your "tools" work better or at all. Its the application of those tools in a full resistance environment that bring out the efficacy or inefficacy of those tools you so admire.

If self control and body mechanics are all it takes, then gymnasts and Tango dancers should make great fighters.

Its not WHAT, but HOW, my friend.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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