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#175452 - 08/05/05 01:21 AM aiki practise: ineffective?
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
hi. I was just talking to another martial arts seeker and he openly tells me that aikido as practised today is useless. In other words, dojos focus too much on 'technique' and getting 'technique' correctly and not focusing too much on the principles behind a technique. He even implies that the principles of aikido are flawed. He points out that the kokyu dosa exercise should be done with out 'tricks'. Specificially, when we try to lift the uke's hands, we ought not to lift it by changing the angle of the wrists and elbows.

Apparently, this guy's instructor is located in Tokyo and has knocked out a few aikido shihans even with a simple shomen strike.

What do you guys think?

p.s.--this is not coming from an MMA guy, but a guy who practises internal Chinese martial arts.


Edited by WarriorOfLuv (08/05/05 01:24 AM)

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#175453 - 08/05/05 02:17 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
I actually did a little writeup of the possibility of a clash between such styles a month ago.

Quote:

I'm imagining a fight between a Daito-Ryuer and a BaguaZhangista for the right to have "steel" join their McDojo/Kwoon/whatever. One is a ponytail clad seagal wannabe, who worships the militaristic values he "sees" in the ideals of the samurai, the other worshipping the mushy bullshit that he thinks is taoism.

Or possibly:
[img]http://www.trianglebagua.com/photos/Cliff%20Chaffin%20Bagua%20SGL%20The%20garden.jpg[/img]
And:
[img]http://users.libero.it/certa.anto/toni.gif[/img]

BGZ attempts a properly combat oriented beng chuan, attempting to put as much fa jing into the punch as he can. Unfortuenately, Beng Chuan is cantonese slang for "goofy reverse punch".
DTRY, having trained for this (and an overhead knife hand) his whole life, is momentarily paralyzed. Luckily, the loadup time of that punch allows him to mentally browse through his catalogue of techniques and he settles on stepping out of the line of force and using nikkyo (outside wrist twist) combined with a nukite strike to the atemi point under BGZ's bicep.
He succesfully steps away with a movement that sets his hakama to billowing. BGZ counters by using his Qi (in the strictest sense of mental focus and proper biomechanics, mind you) to resist the twisty wristy, known in non-mongoloid as "muscling your way out of it". Neither party is surprised when DTR's attempt to finger BGZ's nonexistent muscles fails.
There is a brief and comical explosion of wrist grabs vs. chi sao and qinna, as they both step around in elaborate patterns, neither one getting past their opponent's forearms. Sometimes these big steps are halted in mid motion by the reality of an opponent who is (however innefectually) holding on to you, so their upper bodies bend backwards or to the side as their legs keep going, which is the kind of thing that would give any Judoka a big throbbing one. Yet neither executes a throw, trip or takedown because, as we all know, you never want to go to the ground on the street (despite the rather goofy ground wrist locks in DTR's curriculum).
Stalemated, they break their "clinch". Suddenly they both remember that their arts are about redirecting their opponent's energy.
Both fervently hoping for another attack to borrow the energy from, they repeat the previous stepping patterns in an attempt to draw a strike or something from their opponent. They never come any closer than five feet.
Unknowingly, they are actually sucking out the heavenly qi around them. A black, crackling void is forming between them...
Then they are instantly vaporized by a Protoss Dragoon who has understandably mistaken them for Dark Templar.




_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#175454 - 08/05/05 02:30 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...<snip>...
Apparently, this guy's instructor is located in Tokyo and has knocked out a few aikido shihans even with a simple shomen strike.

What do you guys think?

p.s.--this is not coming from an MMA guy, but a guy who practises internal Chinese martial arts.




Yesterday I saw Elvis practising Tai-Chi with my grandmother at the backyard of my house. He was wearing an oriental phoenix embroided silk kung-fu shirt and I think Elvis look quite smart in it. Do you believe me?

Hello Warrior of Luv,
I am not saying that your above is not impossible, however with out evidence based, I don't think you can convince many.

Boon.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#175455 - 08/05/05 03:05 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: xuzen_628]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
I'll refer you to the person who I receive this information from if you want.

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#175456 - 08/05/05 03:09 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: Ubermint]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
What the.... Are you on something? What has that piece got to do with anything?

Your posts constantly slag off any art which isn't the one you practice Hedgehogey... er I mean Ubermint. You seem to forget that most of the arts you insult and put down are those exact arts which are root to the art you practice? No roots no trees my friend. No daito ryu = no judo, no jujitsu, no aikido etc. No jujitsu= no aiki jujitsu, no brazilian jujitsu and every other jujitsu/jujutsu affiliation either! And the list goes on.

Warrior Of luv, I've seen karateka, boxers, mma's get knocked down and knocked out but that doesn't mean to say I think the art/sport they practice is ineffective! Just that no one is invincible. You can't judge an art by one practitioner or from anyhting you may have heard.
_________________________
Chanters

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#175457 - 08/05/05 03:55 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: Chanters]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
I'm not, I guess 'ineffective' is too strong a word, how about inferior?

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#175458 - 08/05/05 04:13 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Are you implying no other practitioner of any other art has ever been struck or was unsuccessful in a dojo in defending against an attack? No art is ineffective or inferior to any other art. It all depends on the individual practicing the art and under what circumstances.
_________________________
Chanters

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#175459 - 08/05/05 09:53 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: Chanters]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Not at all, I do acknowledge that all humans can fail at a survival situation--after all they are humans.

Basically, the method taught at this school is that the body must be moved as one whole unit. In Japanese budo, we learn how to use power with our hips. This fella is saying, and in the process discrediting most Japanese budo, that that way is ineffective because it ignores the body as a whole. Hips have power value but they are only conduits of power, they don't generate power.

His anecdotes are believable and his examples can be corroborated..if you're an aikido guy, go to Tokyo and experience it yourself.

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#175460 - 08/05/05 10:09 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
There seems to be some mentality in the MA that wants to identify an "ultimate" fighting art. To me this seems an awful lot like looking in a toolbox and identifying a pair of pliers to a screw-driver. I have also noticed that the Aikido people seem to catch a lot more flack than others though I think the manner in which the art is promoted tends to sorta set-up the Aikido community for this sort of abuse. Its a bit like the religious zealot espousing some kind of special regard for himself but basing it on scriptural interpretation rather than hard facts. But, putting that arguement to one side, for no more times than a person might possibly be called upon to use their training in a life-time the ideas and applications behind an "aiki" art probably justtify the long learning curve and dedication required. After all its a lot easier to learn a more muscular art form and provide less consideration to what happens to the other person than to take years to learn finesse techniques that aspire to saving the attacker from himself, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#175461 - 08/05/05 10:39 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: glad2bhere]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
I agree with what you're saying but like I said, this is not a typical MMA'er bashing. This is another internal martial artist commenting on how aikido is practised. I myself do not think aiki principles are flawed (I think they are perfect for multiple attacker scenarios, but that is my humble opinion) and even think using the hips to produce power is very valid. However, what this guy is saying and what he is teaching is very old and can be found in the curriculum internal Chinese martial arts. The only difference is he takes a new school approach to internal Chinese martial arts. I bring this up to entertain the possibility to enrich aikido practise. Aikido is my primary style and I do intend that as I continue my martial arts journey but I will be the one of the first to admit that it is not totally complete. Those chinese fellas can really enlighten martial artists on refined body mechanics. Anyway, carry on and thanks for the discussion.

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#175462 - 08/05/05 11:06 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
As far as I'm aware from what I have practised and read, we do move and utilise the whole of our bodies but the majority of the power comes from the hips and our 'centre'. Ki is supposed to flow through every part of our body and extension in the arms is an important factor in our training. To say aikidoka only use their hips or a part of their body is incorrect and you've been fed misinformation.
_________________________
Chanters

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#175463 - 08/05/05 11:10 AM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I've seen a bunch of western boxers get knocked out in contests under the exact rule sets that they train for, I guess boxing sucks.

I know a guy that trains in traditional arts and he once stopped an aikidoka's technique so aikido sucks and TMAs are the bomb.

I know a whole bunch of guys that are dan ranked in various striking arts but they are now practicing aikido. I guess they must know something... maybe aikido is better than all striking arts.

I once used aikido to throw a 3rd dan in Tang Soo Do, so obviously aikido is better than Tang Soo Do.

I was once taken down by a 6 month BJJ student with a double leg takedown, I guess aikido "takedown defenses" don't work against BJJ.

There is this one guy that says power isn't generated from the hip but rather conducted through the hips. Unfortunately the bugger won't tell me where the power is generated.

One time, at band camp....

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#175464 - 08/05/05 01:59 PM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: csinca]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Some years ago I was entertained by a person playing a guitar at a party. I was thoroughly intrigued as I had never been able to make MY guitar playing sound as nice as his guitar playing. So I asked him where I could get a guitar like his.

Get the point? The performance is NOT in the art it is in the person. You see one kind of performance trump another kind of performance and you automatically make a judgement on the art (IE. "this art is better than that art"). Can't figure why you are doing this. Does the effort of the individual count for nothing? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#175465 - 08/05/05 02:43 PM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: glad2bhere]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Some years ago I was entertained by a person playing a guitar at a party. I was thoroughly intrigued as I had never been able to make MY guitar playing sound as nice as his guitar playing. So I asked him where I could get a guitar like his.




Excellent...

I hope you realize that I was being sarcastic!

I stopped taking the style vs. style question seriously a long time ago.

Chris

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#175466 - 08/05/05 03:12 PM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: xuzen_628]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
Quote:

Yesterday I saw Elvis practising Tai-Chi with my grandmother at the backyard of my house. He was wearing an oriental phoenix embroided silk kung-fu shirt and I think Elvis look quite smart in it. Do you believe me?




That's not Elvis. It's Bob. He always dresses that way. Does look a lot like Elvis, but he's a terrible singer.

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#175467 - 08/05/05 03:28 PM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: csinca]
aikikiai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 61
And what about those of us who do both aikido/budo and Chinese internal arts like baguazhang and xing yi?

I find that both have excellent points.

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#175468 - 08/05/05 08:15 PM Re: aiki practise: ineffective? [Re: aikikiai]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
WarriorofLuv,

You would be better off ignoring any chest-thumping by your friend and agreeing with him that Aikido is useless. It's not worth it. Aikido works. Remember all the challenges O'Sensei and the dai sempai took on in the early years? Keep training.

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