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#175115 - 08/03/05 11:01 PM Krav Maga or Sambo
Ronindiver Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 4
Hi:

I am new to the forum. I am in LE as well and would like to know if any of you have trained in Krav Maga or Russian Martial Arts? I am looking at getting some videos to train from because I live so far away from a good school. What do you think?

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#175116 - 08/04/05 10:36 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Ronindiver]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Why don't you let us know where you are so we can try to refer you to an instructor? Learning strictly by video can be a tremendous waste of time and you will not generally find the best LE related info freely available on video.

Either program can provide you with information. Neither program is comprehensive for LE work.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#175117 - 01/13/06 12:05 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Ronindiver]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
I am in corrections. I have also been a KM student for some time before switching to HaganaH. Sambo is mostly a wrestling style, Not always the most practical thing in the LE world. You dont want to go to the ground with a violent suspect unless you have no choice. I would say go for KM.

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#175118 - 01/13/06 01:20 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Glockmeister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Sambo is a Martial Art first, then a sport, as is Judo. They both contain a Self Defense component as well as a very specific comprehensive method of teaching students to stay on their feet. The difference is that Sambo and Judo can also be played as sports to develop timing and further refine technique under all out resistance.

Does that mean that they are comprehensive and ideal for LE/ CO work? No. Few if any Martial Arts are, KM and FIGHT included.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual. The people who I have met who have been the most satified with KM and FIGHT, have been very technique oriented and focused. Those who have gravitated to systems like Sambo, Judo, BJJ, etc tended to be much more interested in "game" and wanting to test everything under pressure. Two different learning styles that can both produce results, but are difficult to for many to balance.
_________________________
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#175119 - 01/13/06 12:42 PM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Fletch1]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Fletch1, what style do you consider ideal for LE work?
I have teken a few traditional MA in my time, and am currently studying BJJ and dabbling in some Judo both of them have some good things about them that can be practical in a correctional environment particularly Judo with its devastating sweeps and throws. However, I have found the FIGHT system and KM systems to also be very useful if you ever find yourself under a sudden and violent attack in cramped spaces such as a cell. where a ground fighting art has many limitations. Keep in mind a cop on the street has a gun, pepper spray, a baton, etc.
WE have no weapons inside the cell blocks except maybe a flash light.

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#175120 - 01/13/06 06:32 PM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Ronindiver]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
There is little I can add to what Fletch and Glock have already noted. Have you seen either style demonstrated?

I am afraid the question is like asking which ice cream is better..they all taste great on a hot day. It all boils down to what works for you, and what you enjoy as that is a critical factor.

Check the Krav forum. The first two posts are a background on Krav, and a school locator. There are also some threads on other like forms like FIGHT and "The System" (Russian).

Edit note: I am not endosing any of these systems, only offering you a chance to investigate options



Edited by RangerG (01/15/06 10:19 AM)

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#175121 - 01/14/06 04:38 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Glockmeister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
What "style" do I consider "ideal" for LE work? That's easy.

There isnt one.

I have lost track of how many times I have heard from someone that XXX-Do or ZZZ-Jitsu is "perfect for LE or CO work". I have heard it about Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, Aikijitsu, Krav Maga, etc. all from enthusiastic students and teachers of those respective arts.

As an instructor, as someone who is on the job and as a discriminating student, I owe it to myself to be brutally honest about selecting a "Martial Art" to learn "Police Tactics".

Police & Corrections officers do not NEED to learn "Martial Arts". They NEED to learn their jobs and how to safely do their jobs without getting themselves or someone else unnecessarily hurt or exposing themselves or their agencies/ facilities to excessive liability.

Officers need skills, tactics, strategies that are directly related to and developed for, their jobs. It amazes me just how many people lose focus on the "job" in favor of perpetuating the "art".
_________________________
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#175122 - 01/15/06 09:40 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Fletch1]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:


As an instructor, as someone who is on the job and as a discriminating student, I owe it to myself to be brutally honest about selecting a "Martial Art" to learn "Police Tactics".

Police & Corrections officers do not NEED to learn "Martial Arts". They NEED to learn their jobs and how to safely do their jobs without getting themselves or someone else unnecessarily hurt or exposing themselves or their agencies/ facilities to excessive liability.





I agree. However in the world we live in there are going to be times when even though you did everything by the book, you still may find yourself dealing with a physical confrontation. last tuesday, a situation developed and two officers attempted to take down a resisting inmate. I responded to the "code" as did several other officers. The situation was taken care of and no officers were injured. However, when I viewed the tape of the incident ( all cell blocks have cameras) I realized that had either of the two officers had some knowledge of certain arts, they may not have had as much of a hard time dealing with the subject. Had they known any chokes for example, there was an ample opportunity for them to have applied one. in that case, knowledge of BJJ, Hapkido, etc. would have helpd. knowing sweeps is also good. Both officers were trying to muscle down a much larger opponent. knowledge of say, Judo for example or Haganah or a number of other arts would have also helped...

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#175123 - 01/15/06 11:16 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Glockmeister]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

However in the world we live in there are going to be times when even though you did everything by the book, you still may find yourself dealing with a physical confrontation.




A large part of my LEO experience was in being the "Bloodhound". I did Tactical Woodlands tracking and recovery of escapees and armed suspects in woodland environments. I have been witness to two occasions where the suspect burst from cover and knocked over agents/officers who were hunting them. Sidearms in close like that would have been useless..or worse. Friendly fire in a tight packed woodlands situation is a concern when you have a mix of Feds, State and local boys... Old school MA, grappling and football tackles usualy ended the escape attempt. Other officers further back with longarms took care of the exceptions. Like the Army...no battle plan survives the first exchange of hostilities..

Just a little two cents interjected on my part. Feel free to agree or disagree
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#175124 - 01/15/06 10:45 PM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: Ronindiver]
ziggytkd Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 90
Loc: KY USA
I would have to agree that there is no MA perfect for LE or corrections. As someone who works in both fields I have found that certain techniques I've learned in MA have helped take individuals down. However its been my experience that very few MA schools have an instructor knowledgeable enough or perhaps humble enough to teach someone the techniques that are useful to LE. Not to say that their not any instructors who can put aside their pride for their art to admit the fact that no art is the perfect LE art.

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#175125 - 01/16/06 12:10 AM Re: Krav Maga or Sambo [Re: ziggytkd]
Tolyn1007 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 113
Loc: SF Bay Area
I've been in LE for over 15 years and have been teaching weaponless defense for the last 6 and I have to agree that there isn't one MA that is "perfect" for law enforcement officers. I like to think that we (meaning my department) have one of the more comprehensive weaponless defense training systems available. We teach arrest control and compliance, Krav Maga for self-defense and ground fighting and the training is on-going versus the once every two years that seems to be standard in our industry (I hold class about every 5 days). I like KM for the self-defense and given the situations that it's used in, it doesn't require modification in order to be effective and the National Training Center has worked on tailoring their techniques to a LE application. But, it doesn't have a lot in the way of arrest control but then again neither does any other MA. BJJ or Judo is great for ground fighting but you have to be able to transition some of the techniques into LE applications. Same with Hapkido and Aikido and I'm sure that it would apply to any MA. There are always useful techniques you just have to figure out how to transition them into something you can use on the job which brings me to my little piece of advise....

Once you've decided on what MA you want to pursue, work with a partner or your departmental instructor and see how you can transition some of those techniques into ones you can use on the streets. As an example, we never learned a lot of take-downs with entries from the front. My partner and I worked on taking a leg sweep and a hip toss to a prone control so that we could offer our officers some additional options in the event that they didn't convienently find themselves entering from a position of advantage (behind and slightly off-set).

Hope I didn't lose anyone with my rambling. I'm at my in-laws and keep getting side tracked by other conversations.
_________________________
~Tolyn~ www.tolynsworld.com

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