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#174208 - 08/01/05 11:01 PM Defensive or offensive
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Do you consider kata to be defensive or offensive? Everybody knows the quote 'in karate there is no first attack'. Does this mean you should let someone put their hands on you before reacting? I don't think so.
Thoughts?
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#174209 - 08/01/05 11:18 PM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: SANCHIN31]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
I don't do Karate but our poomse follows a pretty steady pattern of block, counter attack,block, counter attack, some of the forms also simulate a "fight" against multiple attackers. So I think its both really.

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#174210 - 08/01/05 11:31 PM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: Christie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Christie,
Sorry,but I'm going to have to completely disagree with your post.
Block then punch,well,I've addressed that several times in the forums.I don't do it or believe it and I think that's a watered down sport version of poor self defense that mma guys eat up.

Also fighting against multiple attackers.Who made that crap up? Does anyone really fight that way? In my opinion that's way off base and just plain wrong.In other words incorrect applications! Nobody has the superpowers it would take to fight multiple attackers that way.

To me many kata applications start defensive,but could be used preemptively. Starting defensive and then going offensive until your attacker is done.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#174211 - 08/02/05 01:25 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I always assume being surrounded by multiple attackers spaced at 45 degrees and equi-distant apart from each other...each one attacks sequentially with a single pre-disposed technique and all opponents are coordinated in a geometric symetrical pattern.

BWAHHAA...sorry couldn't keep a straight face.
seriously,
The punch-block block-punch whatever it was thing is taught in the beginning for things like mai, body positioning and just getting the general feel for it. It was designed for kids, but it does have value if the right things are pointed out during instruction. later, the interpretations will be different, more fluid and natural. The next question would be: why not just practice it this way from the beginning? given the right instructor, sure absolutely. The bigger the class (and/or younger), the harder it would be to teach...hence the reason why Japan added to the okinawan arts the notion of chopping the art into modules and spoon feeding the instruction. tack on the '-Do' give all the techniques nihongo names and the students rank and tada! now you have the Japanese art of Okinawan fighting. Many dojos kept this way as incorrectly believing it was 'traditional' to teach this way. some consciencly kept the way because they do in fact teach many kids.
Private instructors and surprizingly few commercial dojos nowadays tend to remove the Japanification out of the art and have you dig right into the meat of the system without screwing around with a tinfoil wrapper.

Then there are some Okinawan arts that have been innovated by Japanese but kept more of the science than the -Do.

The watered down part of karate is know as 'school-boy' karate. It's that part that mcdojos and bullshidojos like to promote because it makes their job easier. its also the part that the MMA/BJJ guys love to tease (with good basis) karate about.

Two ways to get thru the school-boy stuff...plow thru it and stick with it till you get into the traditional forms and gradually figure it out and don't look back...or...like I mentioned an instructor/dojo who has already stripped away the pretty wrapper.
but thats just my take on it so far. others might see it different and I may develop a new view in the future.

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#174212 - 08/02/05 03:33 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: SANCHIN31]
naraebon Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Vienna, Austria

Hi Sanchin,

I think this article on pre emptive striking was already posted elsewhere, I find it terrific, so here once more ..

http://www.ianabernethy.com/articles/article_2.asp

as well as this one, givine I.A.`s view on whether kata is offensive or defensive.

http://www.ianabernethy.com/articles/article_14.asp

Defensive because we avoid to fight. But if we have to ..



Nara Ebon



supporting you as you say "Nuts to cancer"

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#174213 - 08/02/05 05:21 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
In my mind kata is reactive to a threat, however preemptive striking i simply a reaction to a threat - be it verbal or whatever.

When you think of the opening move of say pinan shodan, it could easily be a simple backfist with guard (and set up of downward strike) to follow, or the reaction to a double grab for headbutt, or many many other things.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#174214 - 08/02/05 08:05 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: SANCHIN31]
kickcatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK
The whole idea of teaching people via kata is offensive. Lol.

But seriously, kata is both offensive and defensive and neither. It is frankly whatever you want it to be within the limitations of the physical activity.

Outside karate (I assume this thread is equally about non-karate forms) the Hung Gar culture I’ve previously partaken in approaches forms as very loose seed-moves –inherently abstract from application. The applications showed little choreographic resemblance to the form. This approach contrasts greatly with mainstream attitudes to karate kata which contrive highly implausible self-defence/fighting situations to fit exactly the order, targets etc of the kata –in other words trying to fit reality to the kata rather than vice versa. Anyway, if you view each move in the form as abstract from the applications (rather than a literal story interpretation) then the resulting applications are free to be either defensive or offensive as the situation dictates…
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Judokakakakaka!!!!!!!

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#174215 - 08/02/05 08:41 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: kickcatcher]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
absolutely true. It might not become this until study after shodan, but it is there.

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#174216 - 08/02/05 09:35 AM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: kickcatcher]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
single techniques taught are to simply understand principles, once you see the principle its then time to apply that to various attacks, and of course increase in varience of attack and intensity.

believe me kata is the base, its the application/training delivery that is commonly delivered that makes karate ineffectie live.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#174217 - 08/02/05 01:34 PM Re: Defensive or offensive [Re: Kintama]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

I always assume being surrounded by multiple attackers spaced at 45 degrees and equi-distant apart from each other...each one attacks sequentially with a single pre-disposed technique and all opponents are coordinated in a geometric symetrical pattern.




Well of course!!! Haven't you ever watched movies. If you are heavily outnumbered in a fight involving martial arts, your opponents will wait patiently to attack you one by one by dancing around you in a threatening manner until you have defeated their predecessor.

I said what I've been taught, not whether or not I agreed with it. I don't see them as simulated fights because thats just silly and not probable.

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