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#173261 - 07/30/05 12:44 PM High Kicks
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
When you watch UFC, Pride or Full Contact fighting you don't see too often kicks to the head, or high kicks above bladder. Personally I spar full contact with gear it works well for me, and my training partners have a hard time dealing with it. Not to say they are inferior to me but I can time it out correctly and find an opening.

Now, alot of MA's feel high kicks are dangerous because it leaves you exposed and vulnerable for a take down or whatever. I just can't see the reason why it would'nt work, ofcourse not repetitively because that would just be stupid. From a couple sparring videos I've seen with BL and obviously in his movies, he favors kicking up high to low kicks, so that according to lets say 75% of the MA community would be wrong and stupid, thats when you talk about no rules fighting.

Whats your opinion on High Kicks?

tookien1

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#173262 - 07/30/05 02:35 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Tookien,

High kicks, as in all techniques, have a place somewhere in the pantheon of MA movements, however in any given situation there are cost benefit/detriments that have to be analyzed. With respect to this, high kicks, qualified by the situation, offer the least rewards in this formula.

I think, if you are behind or to the side of an opponent where the opponent must turn to face you, then the risk of using a high kick and the consequences of its failure are mitigated a bit. But again, would a kick to the back of an opponent's head be allowed in sparring? No, for the very reason that this puts safety in question for the receiver of the technique.

However, most high kicks seem to fall in the realm of utility where there is a sporting element involved that doesn't use take downs. Examine the high kicks that you have used or have been exposed to in sparring. If you blocked one coming at you, could you have launched yourself into a tackle of your opponent at the point he is withdrawing the technique? Could you have grabbed the leg and gone for a sweep or kicked out the supporting leg?

The utility of the high kick them becomes suspect if you are using this when take downs are allowed and especially not advisable in a street situation.

Now, in sparring, this might have a surprise effect if you set it up right, but it all depends on the situation and the antangonist. In real life, there would be little time to set something up and deal with your opponent's expectations of not receiving a high kick i.e. low kicks to drop his guard and then go high.

-B

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#173263 - 07/30/05 03:23 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: butterfly]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Agreed, if a kick can be blocked, it can be used to take you down. The only way you could say a high kick would work is if it hit your target's head without even a chance of being caught. You'd have to be VERY skilled to do that if your opponent is facing you. That said, there are situations where high kicks can be handy, I believe. Such as in combination with other techniques or if you lock someone's arm up and kick over it to their head (this puts you off balance however and easier to take down).

Generally, I believe that if you want to kick someone in the head, grab their head and pull it down to your waist height then kick it.

This advice comes from a student of the most "high kicking" martial art there is, WTF TKD. It generally doesn't pay to kick high unless you want to show off.

Try training where your opponent is allowed to grab your leg and sweep, clinch and/or throw you from there.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/30/05 03:24 PM)
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#173264 - 07/30/05 08:49 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Leo_E_49]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Leo,

Exactly! My recommendation for use of the high kick would be after you have closed the gap and have side control of the opponent's torso and have locked up the arm on the side you are controlling...bringing the head down to meet the kick as a counter. : ) Agreed!

Then one has to question if this is now considered a high kick?

In any case, I agree with your explanation.

-B

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#173265 - 07/30/05 11:56 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
"The only way you could say a high kick would work is if it hit your target's head without even a chance of being caught. You'd have to be VERY skilled to do that if your opponent is facing you."

Thats exactly what I think, but not so much in skill, but speed of the kick that will not give the opponent the chance to grab the leg. Offensively I would'nt do it, the only time I do it is when the opponent reaches out towards you, there by creating a little distance and finding an opening . Maybe, it works for me because most of the time, my training partners don't expect it to come, so they get hit and can't react quick enough to grab it. Sometimes, I twist it up a bit, just like mentioned here, attack low, and then high when the moment is just right. I just don't see why it has to be such a "joke", are'nt we always saying, its the MA that counts, not the style.

I posted it here because JKD has alot to do with interception, I think high kicks which are pulled off correctly mostly fall in this category. Sure, telegraphing it will most likely get you taken down, and doing it repetitively also does'nt make sense. But I see no reason why it can't be done. Even when the opponent is physically exhausted, then your chances of landing a solid kick increases.

I've heard opponents can close the range quickly, but a solid kick will immobilize your opponent the least so your pritty much risking your own ass in one way, but the other way you can end it right there, and if it does'nt work out, you can always react to your next situation as you would normally to anything else. Its just my opinion so far, I know from others experiences they will have a differant opinion, but its just such a good strike I don't want to give up just because even 80% of MA'st had some bad experiences with it to deem it as a bad habit.

tookien1

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#173266 - 07/31/05 04:57 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Tookien,

I don't want to disabuse you of a choice of attack with the high kick. And, it is possible to use the high kick in fighting. Only, please consider the benefits and detriments of that choice and training...and the potential bad outcome if this attack doesn't work.

In any case, Leo and I are just giving you some thoughts and guidelines to understand the negatives of high kicks.

Regards,

-B

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#173267 - 07/31/05 10:44 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I completely agree with all your thoughts, I am not opposing anyones opinion, my friend who has trained MA for 24 years has also said the exact same thing everyone here stated about the negative outcome of using a high kick, so I don't doubt anyone here. I just wanted to hear some more thoughts on the issue.

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#173268 - 07/31/05 02:15 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
CatnPhx Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
My opinion is that high kicks are dangerous in a real fight. It really depends on the skill of the opponent but you never really know that until the fight is already on. However, I've seen cases where a side kick to the face of someone charging you (in a fairly straight up position) is effective. Also, a quick round kick (if you're quick enough) as a first stike can surprise your opponent but that too is really risky ... and it is dependent on the skill of your opponent. Most people aren't expecting a first strike quick round kick because most people can't pull it off.

Bottom line (in my opinion) is that high kicks aren't worth it in a real fight because of the risk involved if you fail, which most of the time it will.

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#173269 - 07/31/05 11:39 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: CatnPhx]
Laughing Dingo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 17
Watch some Muay Thai fights sometime and you will see full contact fighting with plenty of high kicks. Sure there are rules, but I think Muay Thai more than demonstrates the effectiveness of kicking above the waist.

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#173270 - 08/01/05 01:14 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Laughing Dingo]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Laughing,

Yes, I think you can use high kicks...and would especially be OK in sporting environments where the risks for extreme, intentional injury are mitigated by the rules and the ref. In this case, I would probably go for a high kick occasionally too.

However, when you see one of these high kicks miss and the oppoent's back is exposed to the other fighter as the kick passes the impact zone, well rules prohibit punching or kicking to the back or the back of the head. No so for a real fight.

Again, nothing wrong with high kicks, but pulling them off safely ...or at least with smallest risk to the kicker...should be the concern.

-B

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#173271 - 08/01/05 06:56 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: butterfly]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I don't personally care much for kicking period, nevermind high kicks.

For all the purported power you get from them, they're slower than punching and more easily telegraphed. Consider that more knockouts are attributed to punching than to kicking.

I think it's wiser to develop your hands and let you feet do what they're supposed to do - move you around (moving your punching into and out of range).

-John

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#173272 - 08/01/05 08:34 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: JKogas]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
John,

For whatever reason, I enjoy kicking...am fairly adept at it, will probably try to use it. But I do understand and respect your comments and note where you are coming from.

But you do have a valid point in this area: I have never personally seen a real fight start with a kick....or, especially, end with a high one.

Warmest regards,
-B

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#173273 - 08/01/05 09:17 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Although I have practiced high kicks/combinations for some time, I would most likely only use leg kicks in a real fight, if at all.
_________________________
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#173274 - 08/04/05 11:56 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: MattJ]
Neonomide Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Finland
How about using kicks in stop-hit? Kicking someone off balance? A kick faint?

There are a lot of street fighters that can make their kicks so that they are not telegraphed, I believe. A lot of it has to do it with participant ability and skill to read a situation.

Lee himself said, that "from a punch and a kick, I always go first with a kick". I think he said that because of the capabilities of stop hit and because his body structure and kicking ability. But for sure, kicking is often risky and not for everyone. I also prefer high punches over high kicks.
_________________________
Low aim is the highest crime a man has. Self-imposed limits affect your work, morality, everything.

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#173275 - 08/04/05 12:27 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
That's the UFC style of fighting but if you go to a TKD or TSD school the high kicks are normal and expected. To tell you the truth if you grabbed someone for a takedown it would be looked down upon and you would probably be told to stop. Not to change the subject but that is why it is so important for an MA student to visit or train in other styles. I see it all the time at seminars or when visiting other schools around the country, people seem to be brain washed that there style is the only one that works, one should as they say, "think out side the box a little and have an open mind toward other styles"

To get back to your original question about high kicks it all depend who your fighting and how much training they have regarding countering the high kicks. If I was fighting an MMA style fighter I wouldn't be throwing anything above his waist but if I was fighting in a point style TKD tournament it would be throwing the opposite.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#173276 - 08/06/05 12:44 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: schanne]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
not to sound ignorant, but isn't dictating what we would do in a fight, as we sit here on our computers alot like deciding that when we are in the woods we are gonna go 20 feet, turn left, go 40 feet, turn slightly to the right....reguardless of where the path goes.wait for the path then follow it. but dont choose before hand to not kick or punch to the high line...wait to see what the situation/path dictates...then apply.

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#173277 - 08/07/05 12:49 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: martialway]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ive used them, and had them used against me. I think it depends on your physique and you training. I was heavy in tkd for a number of years and can kick effortlessly at any level. As for high kicks in UFC, watch Chuck Liddell. A world champion in the UFC and has used high kicks plenty and to ko a few times. So does Caol Uno. Seen Many Muay Thai guys attempt and land them as well. Its not the technique but the person.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#173278 - 08/07/05 05:16 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: martialway]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Depend on how much time you spend in the wood, know what i mean
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#173279 - 08/07/05 11:59 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: schanne]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
know what you mean

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#173280 - 08/14/05 01:22 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
Fangshendo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
I have found that high kicks are too telegraphic and require too much space.They also leave you unbalanced and vulnerable to takedowns and leg/ankle locks.

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#173281 - 08/16/05 05:59 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Fangshendo]
Talimas Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I frequently practice high kicks, to and above the head. Generally in point sparring I will score most of my points with high kicks, but in a real fight I have never brought my left above their thighs let alone to someone's head. Can a high kick be useful in a fight, of course, you can knock someone out in one kick semi easily. Is it worth the risk of them countering and having a great hold to drive your head into the concrete, um.... no. Quick pops to the knees, shins, and thighs "can" potentially keep someone from charging you in a real fight, with that being said even low kicks are risky.

My theory has always been if I can kick a well trained opponent in the head and hit it, then and only then would I consider using a waist or below kick in a fight. If you can't even the low kick may just be too slow, but that is my personal opinion.
_________________________
Some things move, most things breath, anything can be destroyed.

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#173282 - 08/20/05 09:35 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Talimas]
Carbone Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 161
Loc: New York
I already wrote a post on this concerning High Kicks VS Low Kicks and got like 4 pages of responses.

From what I get, use high kicks when necessary. When there's an opening use it, when not, don't. Kinda simple. I'd also suggest avoiding high kicks on a grappler or BJJ fighter.

Makes it easy to get swept and that's their strong point.
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-Carbone

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#173283 - 09/23/05 12:51 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
Marz Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Iraq
Couple of things.

First, don't believe everything you see in movies. It is WIDELY known that what Bruce Lee did on film, was not the art he practiced in reality. Read any old interview with him and you will see this to be true. He DID NOT believe in high kicks (although Chuck Norris claims to have shown him the benefits of it). He says he put them in his movies for show. Did he change his mind towards the end of his life? Maybe he did? He never really says so.

Second, in Muay Thai, high kicks are NOT common. Those fighters that do use high kicks are not the norm in Thai boxing. You will rarely see a kick above the midsection in a Thai match as opposed to an American kickboxing match or a TKD tournament. Not to say they don't happen. It's just uncommon.

Lastly, as to the effectiveness of head kicks; I guess it would depend on the skill of the thrower, as well as the ability of the defender to defend, wouldn't it? In my TKD days, I was never very effective with head kicks. So, in my experience, never kick to the head! You, however, may be better at it than I.

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#173284 - 09/23/05 07:29 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Marz]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Being a long time practitioner of Muay Thai, I do see a lot of High kicks, the reason? It's a show with lots of rules like Bruce Lee said "Too overdaring because of rules".

Imagine the normal poor village kid somewhere from the north of Thailand who are "adopted" and taken to these boxing camps. What they learn isn't real Muay Thai, it's more of a punch, kick, knee and elbow the sandbag and run 10 km everyday. This means, they don't really know Muay Thai, they just know how to kick the sandbag, and use that on the ring.

Now for real Muay Thai, aka, Muay Boran, High kick are only used after a. Parries b. Sidesteps c. Interception of attakcs. My master said a long time ago that "in a self defence situation, rely on your knee, elbow and fists as they won't put you off balance even when faced with multiple opponents".

I agree with Marz, when I sparred with others at my school, I have yet to see any good use of High kicks, methinks, the shin/low kick are a bit more effective and it doesn't break your balance. Most sparring at my school are done without gloves [bound fists], no rounds and no restriction on use of technique except no joint manipulation or strangulations.

Bruce Lee said once "Kicking to the head, is like crouching down to punch at the toes".

well, that was my 50 cent

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#173285 - 09/24/05 02:03 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Taison]
Marz Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Iraq
Hmmmmm.........like I said before, I haven't seen high kicks to be a truism in Muay Thai and I've seen matches in Thailand and that isn't how I was trained. Not that it doesn't happen, just that it isn't common. Maybe you're actually from Thailand and would have more depth of knowledge of Muay Thai than I, which is certainly possible, as I am no expert. That, however, has not been my experience. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have a different take on the subject.

I thought Muay Boran was something completely different from Muay Thai? Different like, "ain't no ballpark neither. It's not even in the same league, h#ll it ain't even the same sport!" (Samuel Jackson)

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#173286 - 09/24/05 04:34 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Marz]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
If it wasn't for my half-thai bloodline, I wouldn't be able to learn the higher-tiers of Muay Boran.

Well, it's kinda hard to distinquish the two but try imagining Hapkido and TKD. Now you got the picture.

Muay Thai = All striking + clinching techniques.
Muay Boran = Muay Thai, locks, throws, disarms, weapons and more traditional techniques not the modern boxing + blind kicking.

It's is indeed not common for high kicks but you usually see 6-8 of them in every round in Lumpini stadium, Bangkok.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#173287 - 09/24/05 05:40 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Taison]
Marz Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Iraq
WELL.............I guess that settles that. Thank you for the lesson.

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#173288 - 09/30/05 04:50 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Just to add something else to the discussion, i believe that the vast majority of the time it is more ecomonically sound to kick to the waist or below. Think of it this way. your legs are the lower portions of your body, use them to attack and defend down there. What's the point of bringing them all the way uo to the head, when your hands are much closer and faster to react. these arts that throw ten kicks to the head each round, you have to question their efficiency. Not to knock anybody's "style". If you look at it from a jkd point of view, are you kicking to the head because it's the most appropriate thing to do, or simply because you prefer to do it. Or indeed are you showing off. I believe that high kicks have their place, but only as a variation or a surprise tactic. I have seen some fighters use them well, in fact, until recently, i had a problem in dealing with such an attack. Now i know that if someone throws a high kick, i have a quicker, more economical, lesser telegraphed attack.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#173289 - 09/30/05 09:37 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: jkdwarrior]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
METHOD OR STYLE not with standing if its open why not use it, have no restrains, you sweep a guy or stop kick his thigh he stumbles reaching for the ground. Head wide open back of head wide open!!!! You could step forward and hit him with your hands and he clinch using you to stand up.

You fient a low blow he waiting for it again, tunnel vision, set up for a high kick!! You could step forward and use your hands breaking his concentration as engage in a fist a cuff. Or end it by surprise!!!

Of course there are risk, but we know how to fight on the ground don't we? Just as they are anytime your limbs extend.
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#173290 - 09/30/05 04:10 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Neko456]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
i'm not saying that you shouldn't use them. You will always be able to think of a situation where they are appropriate. i'm just saying that the VAST majority of times, and this does of course depend on what your opponent does, it is more appropriate to keep the kicks for hitting and defending below the waist if you're looking to fight in the most efficient manner possible.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#173291 - 09/30/05 05:21 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: jkdwarrior]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Granted and point well taken. If economy and efficientcy is what matters, but If a big motion brings a end to a conflict. Making it effective, then do it.

I know it goes againt all what Wing-chun hold worthy and I preach the samething, but I do and hold to hitting whats ever open. Making openings sometimes plays into a counter puncher realm.

Effectiveness outwieghs efficiency in combat, IMHO. Now if you can have both I standby your commentment.
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#173292 - 09/30/05 05:48 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Taison]
Derekwl Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Victoria, Canada
Taison,

Have you trained in Thailand before/Do you train in Thailand now?
I am planning to go there for a year to teach English before I apply to med school and I would really like to train in Chiang Mai. Do you know of any schools/camps that can train more traditional Muay Thai? I do have a little experience in Muay Thai, about 8 months and I have competed in one amateur fight. Let me know!

And back to the high kick discussion, talking about high kicks in Muay Thai seems a little redundant, especially when knees and elbows are involved, but you can't dispute that a successful head kick can end a fight VERY quickly. I would definitely prefer a clinching knee/low kick personally.

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#173293 - 10/07/05 11:51 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Taison]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Taison, my JKD instructor said essentially the same thing about high kicks: "Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot". But, honestly, I don't use high kicks because I have lousy flexibility. I WISH I could kick higher than the waist. That's why I love training muay thai with short people, cause it makes me feel like I can kick higher than I really can!

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#173294 - 10/08/05 12:16 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: ToddR]
CobraLionz Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 39
I think in a MMA a good thrusting kick, side, back at the rib level can be very helpful against many of these grapplers that just charge in with abandon. I honestly have never seen a kick besides a front or roundhouse thrown in a MMA fight. Roundhouses are often the opening kick, because I guess it takes less effort to throw. Unfortunately they have a bad habit of getting stuffed and quickly lead to a takedown.

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#173295 - 10/08/05 11:07 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
I am tall and do not like to high kick.All the low kicking that Bruce did was to open the door to get inside and end it (elbow, knee, head-butt) I remember a instance when I had to defend myself and used a straight blast...it worked, it worked well.

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#173296 - 10/10/05 10:17 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: foreverrocker]
CobraLionz Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 39
To those who think high kicks are too slow, try throwing more than 1 attack ::shakes head::

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#173297 - 10/11/05 03:09 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: CobraLionz]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Cobra,

It's not that kicks are too slow to the head, they can be set up. However, the problem is the risk involved in throwing a high kick and missing, or having it blocked and grabbed, and opening oneself up to take downs while unbalanced with one foot in the air.

High kicks can be usable, if the circumstances allow it, but relatively speaking, it is probably safer to throw lower kicks and work from there.

-B

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#173298 - 10/12/05 08:52 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: CobraLionz]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
Oh my gosh, I have seen lightning fast kicks, I am not saying it can't be done. It is just a high risk move. I would hate to get caught being flashy and dumped on my ass. It depends on who and where you want to perform the kick. In the "real world" I would never use any high kicks..in the ring, maybe. High kicks can be a a great attack, if it hits.

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