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#173261 - 07/30/05 12:44 PM High Kicks
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
When you watch UFC, Pride or Full Contact fighting you don't see too often kicks to the head, or high kicks above bladder. Personally I spar full contact with gear it works well for me, and my training partners have a hard time dealing with it. Not to say they are inferior to me but I can time it out correctly and find an opening.

Now, alot of MA's feel high kicks are dangerous because it leaves you exposed and vulnerable for a take down or whatever. I just can't see the reason why it would'nt work, ofcourse not repetitively because that would just be stupid. From a couple sparring videos I've seen with BL and obviously in his movies, he favors kicking up high to low kicks, so that according to lets say 75% of the MA community would be wrong and stupid, thats when you talk about no rules fighting.

Whats your opinion on High Kicks?

tookien1

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#173262 - 07/30/05 02:35 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Tookien,

High kicks, as in all techniques, have a place somewhere in the pantheon of MA movements, however in any given situation there are cost benefit/detriments that have to be analyzed. With respect to this, high kicks, qualified by the situation, offer the least rewards in this formula.

I think, if you are behind or to the side of an opponent where the opponent must turn to face you, then the risk of using a high kick and the consequences of its failure are mitigated a bit. But again, would a kick to the back of an opponent's head be allowed in sparring? No, for the very reason that this puts safety in question for the receiver of the technique.

However, most high kicks seem to fall in the realm of utility where there is a sporting element involved that doesn't use take downs. Examine the high kicks that you have used or have been exposed to in sparring. If you blocked one coming at you, could you have launched yourself into a tackle of your opponent at the point he is withdrawing the technique? Could you have grabbed the leg and gone for a sweep or kicked out the supporting leg?

The utility of the high kick them becomes suspect if you are using this when take downs are allowed and especially not advisable in a street situation.

Now, in sparring, this might have a surprise effect if you set it up right, but it all depends on the situation and the antangonist. In real life, there would be little time to set something up and deal with your opponent's expectations of not receiving a high kick i.e. low kicks to drop his guard and then go high.

-B

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#173263 - 07/30/05 03:23 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: butterfly]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Agreed, if a kick can be blocked, it can be used to take you down. The only way you could say a high kick would work is if it hit your target's head without even a chance of being caught. You'd have to be VERY skilled to do that if your opponent is facing you. That said, there are situations where high kicks can be handy, I believe. Such as in combination with other techniques or if you lock someone's arm up and kick over it to their head (this puts you off balance however and easier to take down).

Generally, I believe that if you want to kick someone in the head, grab their head and pull it down to your waist height then kick it.

This advice comes from a student of the most "high kicking" martial art there is, WTF TKD. It generally doesn't pay to kick high unless you want to show off.

Try training where your opponent is allowed to grab your leg and sweep, clinch and/or throw you from there.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/30/05 03:24 PM)
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#173264 - 07/30/05 08:49 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: Leo_E_49]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Leo,

Exactly! My recommendation for use of the high kick would be after you have closed the gap and have side control of the opponent's torso and have locked up the arm on the side you are controlling...bringing the head down to meet the kick as a counter. : ) Agreed!

Then one has to question if this is now considered a high kick?

In any case, I agree with your explanation.

-B

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#173265 - 07/30/05 11:56 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
"The only way you could say a high kick would work is if it hit your target's head without even a chance of being caught. You'd have to be VERY skilled to do that if your opponent is facing you."

Thats exactly what I think, but not so much in skill, but speed of the kick that will not give the opponent the chance to grab the leg. Offensively I would'nt do it, the only time I do it is when the opponent reaches out towards you, there by creating a little distance and finding an opening . Maybe, it works for me because most of the time, my training partners don't expect it to come, so they get hit and can't react quick enough to grab it. Sometimes, I twist it up a bit, just like mentioned here, attack low, and then high when the moment is just right. I just don't see why it has to be such a "joke", are'nt we always saying, its the MA that counts, not the style.

I posted it here because JKD has alot to do with interception, I think high kicks which are pulled off correctly mostly fall in this category. Sure, telegraphing it will most likely get you taken down, and doing it repetitively also does'nt make sense. But I see no reason why it can't be done. Even when the opponent is physically exhausted, then your chances of landing a solid kick increases.

I've heard opponents can close the range quickly, but a solid kick will immobilize your opponent the least so your pritty much risking your own ass in one way, but the other way you can end it right there, and if it does'nt work out, you can always react to your next situation as you would normally to anything else. Its just my opinion so far, I know from others experiences they will have a differant opinion, but its just such a good strike I don't want to give up just because even 80% of MA'st had some bad experiences with it to deem it as a bad habit.

tookien1

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#173266 - 07/31/05 04:57 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Tookien,

I don't want to disabuse you of a choice of attack with the high kick. And, it is possible to use the high kick in fighting. Only, please consider the benefits and detriments of that choice and training...and the potential bad outcome if this attack doesn't work.

In any case, Leo and I are just giving you some thoughts and guidelines to understand the negatives of high kicks.

Regards,

-B

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#173267 - 07/31/05 10:44 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I completely agree with all your thoughts, I am not opposing anyones opinion, my friend who has trained MA for 24 years has also said the exact same thing everyone here stated about the negative outcome of using a high kick, so I don't doubt anyone here. I just wanted to hear some more thoughts on the issue.

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#173268 - 07/31/05 02:15 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: tookien1]
CatnPhx Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
My opinion is that high kicks are dangerous in a real fight. It really depends on the skill of the opponent but you never really know that until the fight is already on. However, I've seen cases where a side kick to the face of someone charging you (in a fairly straight up position) is effective. Also, a quick round kick (if you're quick enough) as a first stike can surprise your opponent but that too is really risky ... and it is dependent on the skill of your opponent. Most people aren't expecting a first strike quick round kick because most people can't pull it off.

Bottom line (in my opinion) is that high kicks aren't worth it in a real fight because of the risk involved if you fail, which most of the time it will.

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#173269 - 07/31/05 11:39 PM Re: High Kicks [Re: CatnPhx]
Laughing Dingo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 17
Watch some Muay Thai fights sometime and you will see full contact fighting with plenty of high kicks. Sure there are rules, but I think Muay Thai more than demonstrates the effectiveness of kicking above the waist.

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#173270 - 08/01/05 01:14 AM Re: High Kicks [Re: Laughing Dingo]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Laughing,

Yes, I think you can use high kicks...and would especially be OK in sporting environments where the risks for extreme, intentional injury are mitigated by the rules and the ref. In this case, I would probably go for a high kick occasionally too.

However, when you see one of these high kicks miss and the oppoent's back is exposed to the other fighter as the kick passes the impact zone, well rules prohibit punching or kicking to the back or the back of the head. No so for a real fight.

Again, nothing wrong with high kicks, but pulling them off safely ...or at least with smallest risk to the kicker...should be the concern.

-B

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