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#173118 - 09/08/05 08:50 PM Re: What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"? [Re: KiDoHae]
wer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

Does an aiki technique involve the use of force?



Here I go getting all engineery and pedantic again:

Yes, aiki technique involves the use of force since force is just any mass accelerating (speeding up) any amount, F=ma. You add your force to his -- e.g. he's moving towards you, you exert a small force in the same direction to pull him.

But, if you try to force a technique to work, "forcing it" or using "brute force" to make your opponent move the way you want, that's not aiki.

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#173119 - 09/09/05 06:25 PM Re: What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"? [Re: wer]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Understood, but lets be more pendantic....

I think I jumped back in around the "ying/yang" discussion. The concept presupposes A naturally occurring balance. The wind blows the bamboo bends. You push, I pull or better yet I yeild - like the bamboo. Nothing has upset that balance. The force of the wind is not constant, therefore the bamboo responds and sways effortlessly with the ever changing changing force of the wind.

Although aiki seems to presuppose the same principle, to a degree, the practioner actaully seeks to only be in this same state for a moment, perhaps a few. Ultimately I wnat to upset that balance and take advantage of my opponents energy. When I do that when does it stop being aiki?

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#173120 - 09/10/05 08:31 PM Re: What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"? [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Stictly speaking? Yes.

However, it is not only (as wer says) adding a smaller force to the larger force (of uke who is attacking properly), but also "leading" the force ("yielding" is a way of "leading") - and in that respect, it is similar to the taiji principle of using 4oz of force to deflect 1000lbs of force.

Here's a section from Cheng-Tzu's Treatise on Taiji that may help elucidate what is meant by the preceeding statement:
Quote:


...When they use 1000lbs to attack, they have a direction. If the attack is straight, I use 4oz to lead the end of his hand [could be any part of the body?]. I follow his tendency and shift to the diagonal direction [yielding the body?]. This is an example of leading. After his force dissipates [yang to yin?], I push him [yin to yang?]....The power of the push [fa-jing?] is then up to me. The power of the leading force should not be excessive or else the opponent will intuit it and be able to mobilize and escape. On occasion I can use the leading force to change his direction [principle of leading control] and attack him. If he detects my lead [i.e. I mis-timed the movement] he will store up his force and not advance. When he stores up his force his tendency is to withdraw [yang to yin]. Follow his withdrawal, give up the leading force [yin to yang?], and discharge [fa-jing?] him....





The way I read this, is that "fa-jing" (release of energy) in taiji is not so dissimilar to how one would use "force" (i.e. "kokyu") in aiki. For the engineering minded, the imagery is that of a loaded spring or a drawn bow releasing potential (stored) energy, where such release of energy occurs through the weak points of the adversary's structural balance.

The more I think about it, the fundamental tactical difference between "ju" and "aiki" is that "ju" is more focussed on manipulating weaknesses in the anatomical structure through nerves, bones, joints and ligaments to affect the internal energy potential of the attacker, whereas "aiki" focuses mainly on external vector forces in relation to the entire anatomical structure (of the attacker).

At least, how I see it at the moment.

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#173121 - 09/10/05 10:06 PM Re: What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"? [Re: eyrie]
wer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

The more I think about it, the fundamental tactical difference between "ju" and "aiki" is that "ju" is more focussed on manipulating weaknesses in the anatomical structure through nerves, bones, joints and ligaments to affect the internal energy potential of the attacker, whereas "aiki" focuses mainly on external vector forces in relation to the entire anatomical structure (of the attacker).




Yes! I agree, that seems just right. Thanks for providing a good thread for us to hash out our ideas.

Now, about that windy bamboo image -- do you have any good ju vs aiki images for us to kick around?

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#173122 - 09/11/05 07:16 PM Re: What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"? [Re: wer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The commonly used analogy of "ju" is that of running water flowing around a rock. I prefer the surfing analogy - not that I can surf or have ever surfed.

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