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#172416 - 07/28/05 05:01 AM Deadening your body?
spine_of_atlas Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 1
Loc: Alabama
Ok, First things first. Im new here so...if i screw up...please forgive me. But, i dont want to waste anybodys time, so i'll get straight to the point. In my MA class (Its private lessons from a guy I know who studied TKD for a while (not sure of his years spent, sorry) and other martial arts such as Kenjutsu, Ninjitsu, Aikido, etc. etc...So if i call it MMA please forgive me, i just call it that, so i dont have to type out 100 diff. arts, But, its also the only class i can take, so i know its not a LEGIT class, but its all i have in my area, give me some credit lol) anyway, in my class we use pressure points pretty often, and i was just wondering, is there anyway to deaden yourself from them? If that makes any sense. Train your body where Pressure Points dont hurt so badly?

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#172417 - 07/28/05 07:13 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: spine_of_atlas]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
hiya, welcome to the forum!

To the best of my knowledge and from experience I don't think there is a way to condition yourself against pressure point strikes.

I can't quite remember where following explanation came from, I'm sure it was a Dillman tape (I'll have to go back through them to confirm), nor whether the juices I'm about to talk about actually exist, but its a great way of explaining it and I can vouch for it during the pain. Perhaps one of our resident guru's could give a more technical explanation. Anyway here goes:

When you hit a point it releases a kind of protective juice to ease the effect of the strike. If the point is struck again it will release about 60% of this juice, thus reducing the protection from the strike. On the third strike the body only releases about 30% of this juice to ease the effects of the strike. Basically this protective juice effectively runs out, so with each strike its effects multiply due to decrease in this protective juice.

A good way to prove this is to pick on a specific point, I usually use Large Intestine 10 (LI10) in the arm to prove this one. You can see the location of LI10 here! If you can find a willing partner, whap them with 3 low powered strikes (just hard enough to feel it), using the same ammount of power each time you do it. Pause for a couple of seconds between each one so your partner can tell what they feel like. I think you'll find that by the third strike they'll be asking you to stop!

Obviously only do this when your with a qualified instructor yada yada!

This three hit rule is sometimes used as a sneaky tactic at PP demonstrations to score an easy K.O. The demonstrator will show the points being used a couple of times before actually doing the real one, with each demo run they'll whap the points a little to soften up the recipient for the real strike.

I'll do some looking around to try and find out a more technical explanation rather than just "protective juices", and post it up if you're interested. That's unless someone else knows what the hell I'm talking about!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#172418 - 07/28/05 08:23 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: spine_of_atlas]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I wouldn`t go "deading" my body to achieve something like that. I truly doubt it`s healthy.

Very interesting Gavin.

PP can be resisted with the mind alone, but the problem is you need some time, you have to know that you`re going to be hit to a PP. So if someone surprises you I guess that doesn`t help much.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#172419 - 07/28/05 08:47 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: Kosh]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

PP can be resisted with the mind alone, but the problem is you need some time, you have to know that you`re going to be hit to a PP. So if someone surprises you I guess that doesn`t help much.




Now you've got my attention. Could you explain this one please mate. There are certain points that I know can be resisted through tensing certian muscles groups which must shield the point somehow. Have you got some examples on points where you could do this with?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#172420 - 07/29/05 04:32 PM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: Gavin]
pisces590 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Texas, U.S.A.
alright, i might know something about that juice you are talking about. They are called Endorphins, and they are the body's natural painkillers. Here is how i learned about them. In my very first kata, H-form 1, there is a 3-hit combo to the heart that is considered a lethal move. This is because from a single hard hit to the heart, it takes 60% or your endorphins to numb the pain. So on the 2nd hit, you have only 40% left, so it hurts worse. On the 3rd hit, you dont have any left, so your heart basically ends up stopping from the trauma(i geuss thats what you would call it). It may or not be true, it is just what i learned in my class. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it is right.

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#172421 - 08/01/05 08:38 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: pisces590]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
A cigar to you pisces59!

Just started to do some research into these protective juices and endorphines popped up. Could saved myself a load of time if I'd actually read your update! Found this here which has a section on why acupuncture works, here's a quote:

Quote:

The question arises, how does Acupuncture work? Scientists have no real answer to this; as you know many of the workings of the body are still a mystery. There are a few prevailing theories:

By some unknown process, Acupuncture raises levels of triglycerides, specific hormones, prostaglandins, white blood counts, gamma globulins, opsonins, and overall anti-body levels. This is called the "Augmentation of Immunity" Theory.
The "Endorphin" Theory states that Acupuncture stimulates the secretions of endorphins in the body (specifically Enkaphalins).
The "Neurotransmitter" Theory states that certain neurotransmitter levels (such as Seratonin and Noradrenaline) are affected by Acupuncture.
"Circulatory" Theory: this states that Acupuncture has the effect of constricting or dilating blood vessels. This may be caused by the body's release of Vasodilaters (such as Histamine), in response to Acupuncture.
One of the most popular theories is the "Gate Control" Theory. According to this theory, the perception of pain is controlled by a part of the nervous system which regulates the impulse, which will later be interpreted as pain. This part of the nervous system is called the "Gate." If the gate is hit with too many impulses, it becomes overwhelmed, and it closes. This prevents some of the impulses from getting through. The first gates to close would be the ones that are the smallest. The nerve fibers that carry the impulses of pain are rather small nerve fibers called "C" fibers. These are the gates that close during Acupuncture.
In the related "Motor Gate" Theory, some forms of paralysis can be overcome by Acupuncture. This is done by reopening a "stuck" gate, which is connected to an Anterior Horn cell. The gate, when closed by a disease, stops motor impulses from reaching muscles. This theory was first stated by Professor Jayasuriya in 1977. In it he goes on to say:

"...one of the factors contributing to motor recovery is almost certainly the activation of spindle cells. They are stimulated by Gamma motor neurons. If Acupuncture stimulates the Gamma motor neurons, the discharge causes the contraction of Intrafusal Muscle fibers. This activates the Spindle cells, in the same way as muscle stretching. This will bring about muscle contraction





Guess I'm going to be buying a few more books from amazon!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#172422 - 08/07/05 08:20 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: Gavin]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Sorry, I don`t have a particular example for tensing. I think that most PP can be covered with muscles if you tense them. But I`m not sure on the usefullnes of this. The thing is (at least from my experience) that if you tense up when someone strikes you (on a PP or not) there can be a greater after effect. The pain might be a bit smaller and easier to take, but doesn`t go away that soon. If you`re relaxed, the begining pain might be greater (at least in the begining) but it goes away pretty fast. I think it also depends on how much muscle mass you have. I`m a skinny guy, so tensing is not a good option for me usually (the strikes come through anyway, not that they can`t on the bulkier guys).
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#172423 - 08/23/05 05:35 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: Kosh]
xamax Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 15
y do u want to deadening ur body.... pressure points is to block the flow of chi (this is chinese stuff) if u see it as western way then it is the nerves. so in a sense if u want to deadening ur body then u are just abusing ur body. there is a way to reduct the effcts as for me i learn to use chi to either absord or reflect. not an easy thing to learn (im still learning)

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#172424 - 09/06/05 10:17 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: xamax]
malanr116 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Indiana
Good post Gavin!

I have found that if you tense your muscles, or try to fight against a pressure point technique, it hurts more!

I think the best defense is probably to get them before they get you!
_________________________
There are two sides to every story, choose your side. Annon

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#172425 - 09/06/05 10:51 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: spine_of_atlas]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"He tried using pressure points to make Sensei more compliant but Sensei's Sanchin, "iron shirt," training meant that they had no visible effect."

This excerpt was taken from Steve Rowe's regular column in this months Martial Arts Illustrated, magazine.
Steve is well known as an authority of the highest order on PPs.

What is Sanchins iron shirt training?
Sorry, can't help.
My club do not use the kata Sanchin, but I'm pretty sure others here could tell you.

At least it may give you a direction to look in.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#172426 - 09/06/05 11:55 AM Re: Deadening your body? [Re: McSensei]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I have no experience with the iron shirt training. But I've seen some wonderful MA's demonstrations where people have taken huge blows and shrugged them off.

From what I've read, admittedly not alot, alot of these demo's rely on the recipient of the strike being prepared to take the strike. In reality an opponent wouldn't be given the opportunity to prepare for the strike. So I'm still skeptical as to whether you could condition your body to take PP shots, without prior knowledge to the strike. I'm sure Mr Rowe will enlightend us either way, if he gets the chance.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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