FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 39 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
charlie 2
futsaowingchun 2
harlan 1
Matakiant 1
ergees 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 9 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Topic Options
#172285 - 08/10/05 11:05 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: globetrotter]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

how difficult is it to understand - man has been making weapons to kill other men for at least 500,000 years, it might be accurate to say closer to 2,000,000, but then the "humanity" part gets fuzzy.




Well technically history is a matter of written records. That only dates back 6,000 years or so. Let's use your original percentage of 99.9% of the time, since you are certain it was the most accurate statement. .1% of 6000 is the last 6 years.

If you want to deal with the origin of homo sapiens sapiens(modern human), that's around 195,000 or so years( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html )? We're a pretty young species after all. So .1% of 195,000 is the last 195 years. 200 years ago the musket and cannon ruled the battlefield.

But lets use your 500,000 number. .1% of 500,000 is the last 500 years. 500 years ago I reckon you'd find something very superior to the average hardware store machete. The Japanese for instance were turning out some VERY nice weapons by that time. If I'm not mistaken firearms were in use around that time as well.

The fact remains that if you took a bunch of Spartan warriors and put machetes in their hands and stuck them into a battle with an Athenian phalanx, they're gonna find massed spears to be a VERY real problem. Stick Machetes into the hands of the french knights at Agincourt, and they still would have dropped like flys before the Enlgish longbowmen.

You're just wrong. Sharpened sticks and stones were still very effective on the typical midieval battlefield. A stone from a sling wielded by a peasant can be a VERY deadly weapon. Sharpened sticks in the hands of a group peasants trained in the use of a pikesquare are VERY dangerous even to cavalry.


Quote:

only in the last little bit of human existance have weapons been available that were substantially better than a $30 machete. I stand by that.





That's just patently absurd. At best the machete is a decent short sword which has no thrusting ability. The short sword has never truly ruled a battlefield by itself. The romans probably used them to the best effect that anyone has, but the gladius was much better at thrusting, and the Roman Pilum(sp) was still a superior weapon in many ways. Let's not forget the various forms of ballista.

The point I'm trying to make is that this kind of gross generalization is stupid and pointless and a complete waste of time. It doesn't matter even if you are right. It's a pointless arguement.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

Top
#172286 - 08/10/05 11:21 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Charles Mahan]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
wel, charles, I bow to your great big brain, you have certainly taken this pointless argument to its logical conclussion.

Top
#172287 - 08/10/05 06:52 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: globetrotter]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

armed man,

I can base my argument on one simple fact - in the wars that took place in the great lakes region of africa in the 1990's, about a million people were killed by simple agricultural machetes. the people fighting and doing the killing had pleantiful access to traditional african weapons - iron tiped spears, leather shields, wooden clubs, iron knives - the type of weapons that were very common around the world up until the iron age. they chose the machete as their primary weapon.

from that, I can infer that a person who has grown up with and trained with traditional fighting weapons finds the machete to be a more effective weapon, he probrably knows what he is talking about.




What does the above have to do with your claim that the machete is superior to Ancient, Medieval, & Renaissance swords?



Quote:

concerning your other points - I think that our disagreement boils down to an issue of cost of weapons. I concede your timelines and accurate and well thought out. I hope that you will agree that a full steel sword, or the type that you disgribe and have seen was a fairly rare and costly weapon - that before the very late middle ages it was almost impossible to field an army armed primarily with quality steel swords in large numbers - a few thousand broadswords represented a relativly large army.




No, I do not agree.

You claimed that "that before the very late middle ages it was almost impossible to field an army armed primarily with quality steel swords in large numbers", and yet several Ancient peoples used high-quality iron/steel swords as their primary tactical weapon, as I already indicated.

The original gladius and falcata were the main weapons of the Iberians.

The gladius was later adopted by the Romans, and became their primary weapon.

Swords from this period have been examined, and they reveal varying carbon contents in the blade, varying degrees of hardness, and so on. They are superbly made weapons.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Top
#172288 - 08/10/05 06:58 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: glad2bhere]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Dear Globe:

OK, then what I think I am hearing is that you would effectively "reclassify" the machete as a "sword" albeit of modern derivation.




Bruce,

The term machete dates from the 1570's, and it was probably in use in the Americas earlier in the century. It was clearly developed to help the conquistadors literally hack through the New World.

Thus, perhaps "early modern derivation" would be more accurate.

Best,

A_M_P
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Top
#172289 - 08/10/05 07:11 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: globetrotter]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

AMP,

I am taking as about 1 million people killed by machetes in the past 10 years in africa - between the great lakes wars, and the wars in western africa. if you throw in sudan, you might beef it up a little.

as the roman army held between 120K and 170K troops, at any given time, over a 600 year period, and as most warfare only involved 20,000 or so legionaires at any one battle, and during the vast majority of the period the empire was at peace, I am assuming a number lower than 1 million killed by the gladus.

it is very difficult to judge how people were killed in the arena - if you assume that everyone killed in the arena was killed by a gladus, then this would push the number up above a million, for sure.




Were all the folks killed in Africa killed in warfare (i.e, were they fighting back)? Were any murdered in cold blood?

I ask this because we would then have to factor in things like the entire villages of "hostiles" that were "put to the sword" by the Romans, such as during the Dacian Wars.

Unless you can provide some solid sources for your figures for the Romans, I'm not buying your argument.



Quote:

a little aside - I would guess that however the mongols were killing their victems during their middle age conquerin of central asia, they probrably killed more than 1 million - but that may have been with clubs.




More likely it was with the Asiatic composite bow--the finest personal missile weapon until the advent of firearms.

And IIRC, the Mongols killed upwards of some 13 million people just in China (according to the Guinness Book, at least).
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Top
#172290 - 08/11/05 09:00 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
the thing in rawanda was outright genoside. you are comparing swords through the ages that were used against other swords/sheilds/spears with heavy use and lasted for a long time afterwards to people with guns lining up a big bunch of villagers and hacking them up with machetes.

if we were to sword battles now people would probably use machetes because they're readily available but unless they're full tang i wouldn't expect your average machete to actually stay in the handle because they're so poorly balanced - a machete against most swords ever made would be no contest, your head would be rolling down the hill before you even think about lifting the machete to make another swing. just imagine a baseball bat against a bokken that bat would get one swing but then the bokken would bray his head in.

also the chinese broadswords are sometimes translated to machetes, thought i'd add that.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

Top
Page 9 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9


Moderator:  Charles Mahan, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga