FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
1 registered (futsaowingchun), 36 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
LeroyCFischer 1
William_Bent 1
simonajones111 1
futsaowingchun 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
5 minutes 34 seconds ago
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
5 minutes 34 seconds ago
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35590 Topics
432525 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 5 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#172245 - 08/05/05 11:29 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Again, thanks for the correction Charles (I've looked it up and the "greatest swordsman killed by a farmer" thing is actually a quote from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Quite a goof on my part).

However, I still disagree with the majority on the home defense thing. It isn't nearly as clear-cut as all that. Using a sword as home defense varies greatly from country to country, state to state, and jury to jury (conservatives would look more kindly on it than liberals), and if the intruder is armed, you have a pretty good chance of getting off (in America, at least). However, you will be far better off using a gun and killing them with the first shot (injured criminals have successfully sued for medical bills in the past).

That's a pretty good summary of the previous discussion. I really don't want to get into it again.

In either case: street or home, you are better off, legally, using a knife or gun rather than a sword.
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

Top
#172246 - 08/06/05 01:12 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Quote:



The machete is the agricultural/utilitarian cousin of short swords like the European falchion, the German messer, and the Filipino bolo. Bolos of course figure prominently in many eskrima systems--espada y daga (sword and dagger) is often practiced with a bolo and knife. In Mexico, a method of machete fighting (based on saber fencing), was once practiced. In addition, the Venezualan stick-and-knife art of garote larense also makes use of the machete.





Exactly, AMP. Are we not stepping across the line from actual sword material to derivations OF sword material? I have visions of someone making an arguement for some of that late 19th century Chinese weaponry or (gawd forbid) one of those double-ended Sith pieces from the STAR WARS series. I had it in my mind to make an arguement for Patton's cavalry sabre as he seemed genuinely motivated to find a balance between a thrusting and slashing item in the same instrument (See: Amberger).

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Top
#172247 - 08/06/05 02:29 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: glad2bhere]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.

Quote:

Exactly, AMP. Are we not stepping across the line from actual sword material to derivations OF sword material? I have visions of someone making an arguement for some of that late 19th century Chinese weaponry or (gawd forbid) one of those double-ended Sith pieces from the STAR WARS series. I had it in my mind to make an arguement for Patton's cavalry sabre as he seemed genuinely motivated to find a balance between a thrusting and slashing item in the same instrument (See: Amberger).

Best Wishes,

Bruce




I'm not sure I follow you, Bruce.

My point was simply that the machete is a simple form of sword (which is apparently something you don't agree with).

As for Patton's M1913 saber, it was intended principally as a thrusting tool (although admittedly Patton did mention that his design was a better cutting weapon than the US Cavalry's previous saber). The M1913 was clearly a copy of the British 1908 pattern, which, in turn, was derived from the 1907 Puerto Seguro saber of the Spanish military.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Top
#172248 - 08/06/05 11:58 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Quote:



I'm not sure I follow you, Bruce.

My point was simply that the machete is a simple form of sword (which is apparently something you don't agree with).




Oh, no, I DO agree that there is machete work derived from sabre work. What I was getting confused about is that I thought the focus of the discussion was the use of the sword as opposed to a weapon derived from sword tradition. I agree that the machete would make a formidible street weapon and this has been demonstrated even as recently as the South African uprisings of the last few years. However, when I think of using a sword for a S-D application even in the context of modern combat I immediate envision a specific tradition utilizing a full-sized weapon.

My comment about Patton's pattern weapon was to set a limit on what I would accept as an acceptable limit for the application of the term "sword" in a modern application.

BTW: I stumbled across a VERY interesting program on cable that did an experiment with Bronze Age weapons of the Greek period (somewhere around the period of Troy, I think). The penetrating power of the spear as used on a fresh pig carcass was impressive. On the other hand the bronze sword hacked a number of times and was unable to sever a limb and ultimately was rendered useless as it bent from the application. Thoughts? Comments? (You can probably tell I am listing a bit to thrusting over slashing despite my background in Korean sword. )

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Top
#172249 - 08/06/05 11:58 AM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: zanshi]
Amos Smith Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 133
Loc: Wisconsin
the sword of "no sword" can be used at any time, anywhere.

Amos
_________________________
Amos Smith Koshi-no-Dojo www.chicagobudokai.com

Top
#172250 - 08/06/05 12:52 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: glad2bhere]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Oh, no, I DO agree that there is machete work derived from sabre work. What I was getting confused about is that I thought the focus of the discussion was the use of the sword as opposed to a weapon derived from sword tradition.




Perhaps semantics are becoming an issue now--again, the machete is a sword in everything but its name and most usual type of employment.

Quote:

I agree that the machete would make a formidible street weapon and this has been demonstrated even as recently as the South African uprisings of the last few years. However, when I think of using a sword for a S-D application even in the context of modern combat I immediate envision a specific tradition utilizing a full-sized weapon.




Then perhaps our respective definitions of a "full-sized weapon" differ? I ask this because I just listed 2 "specific traditions" for the use of the machete (one which still survives), and 1 "specific tradition" for the use of the machete's Southeast Asian cousin, the bolo (and, of course, eskrima likewise still survives).


Quote:

My comment about Patton's pattern weapon was to set a limit on what I would accept as an acceptable limit for the application of the term "sword" in a modern application.




What is this "limit" based on?

Quote:

BTW: I stumbled across a VERY interesting program on cable that did an experiment with Bronze Age weapons of the Greek period (somewhere around the period of Troy, I think). The penetrating power of the spear as used on a fresh pig carcass was impressive. On the other hand the bronze sword hacked a number of times and was unable to sever a limb and ultimately was rendered useless as it bent from the application. Thoughts? Comments? (You can probably tell I am listing a bit to thrusting over slashing despite my background in Korean sword. )




That's why iron weapons were developed. The gladius of the Iberians and Romans was iron. The falcata of the Iberians was iron. The spatha of the Celts and Romans was iron.

And to illustrate how good these comparatively early iron swords are, it should be noted that Ancient Iberian swords were noted for their stiff spring temper--they could be bent virtually in a semi-circle, and flex back perfectly straight. Author and historian Peter Connolly witnessed this done with a 2,000-year-old Celtic sword that was dredged from a lake.

And FWIW, I witnessed a similar demonstration with a late Frankish pattern-welded sword (a Viking-type sword). I cringed as I saw the owner bend the thing, but it passed the test.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Top
#172251 - 08/06/05 01:08 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
1.bronze age swords were very poor weapons, look at the thread about persian swords, the main weapon of the time was a spear.

2. I would suggest that a long sword or saber in a house defence situation would be unweildy, too long to use in the corners and staicases easiely.

3. in the 1990's we saw literaly hundreds of thousands of people killed with cheap iron machetes that were made for agricultural use. it could be argued that in all of alexanders wars, and possibly all of rome's wars not as many people were killed with the short iron sword as were killed with the machete in africa in the late 20th century. don't disregard the value of a machete.

Top
#172252 - 08/06/05 02:40 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Benjamin1986]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

Again, thanks for the correction Charles (I've looked it up and the "greatest swordsman killed by a farmer" thing is actually a quote from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Quite a goof on my part).





That's quite alright. A fantastic series of books which draws heavily on military history as the inspiration for a great deal of the world building. That's pretty clearly a reference to the second duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Muso Gunosuke.

Of course it's not a series for those with short attention spans.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

Top
#172253 - 08/07/05 04:42 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....And, while I don't intend on carrying a sword around any time soon, I was wondering, in your opinion, what type/make of sword would be the most practicle for use as a weapon in battle. I mean, not the strongest, or most appealing, but the most versatile, realistic sword design for actual fighting?..."

Dear AMP:

I re-posted the opening contribution to this thread in an effort to clarify my thought.

As I see it a machete, or a cleaver were originally intended to perform some job other than mayhem. Borrowing training from the use of actual swords whose function is originally to commit mayhem I can understand the someone might press a farm implement or kitchen utensil into service as a weapon. I can think of a number of items hanging in my garage right now that would even closely resemble true military items of years past, but these rakes, or such are not in and of themselves military weapons. Now, I don't know about the Phillipino Bolo, but it seems that we have no limit on the length or breadth of the item to choose. However, I think we need to decide whether we are talking about something that was originally manufactured as a weapon or an item that developed into a piece of weaponry through "customary use". Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Top
#172254 - 08/07/05 11:52 PM Re: Realistic Sword? [Re: glad2bhere]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
a machete fits the framework of historical weapon design - if the technology had been available through out history to manufacture machetes, for 99.9% of human history they would have been the best weapon on the field.

Top
Page 5 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >


Moderator:  Charles Mahan, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga