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#171842 - 08/02/05 01:30 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
Glad2BeHere...since you practise hapkido you should be familiar with the throw Tomenage, This throw at the point where you would normally pull both arms down to flip up into mount, the traditional Kito Ryu way is to pull only one arm causing the person to land on the side of the face with their whole body to follow and the intention you ask? well it is to kill.
Same sort of thing with the hip throw..instead of letting them down gentle and depending on them to break fall, what happens when you keep their arm and drive them face first into the concrete? and what is the intention? i can assure you it is not just to harm the person.
My instructor and i had a quite detailed conversation on this last night, Kito Ryu is what you might like to call the "father" of all the jiu jitsu, judo and yes even hapkido arts. It is the eldest martial art in these fields with a little less ground work than other systems. Jigaro Kano spent his whole life changing these techniques to make them able to be used in practise and so that people could practise 6 days a week instead of the original training of maybe a week on and a few months off to heal. Why was this necessary for Kano to do had the throws and techniques not been lethal?
As soon as i asked my instructor, He answer my questions instantly with saying The throws were all designed to kill or maim the opponent. Does it not make sense that this would be so? If you are on the battlefield you cannot waste your time trying to finish an opponent after administiring a throw, geez you might be killed from behind. Wouldn't it make sense to use lethal throws on the field instead? You know like cut out the middle man.
Glad2BeHere, if you are still unsure my sensei has given permission to scan his Kito Ryu Instructors Registration Certificate.
You seem to me another person who believes that their way is the only way. And their art is the only art. And i dont believe how you mocked me believing my sensei when he told me these things. Who has been feeding you your information? Were you fed this information by documents to prove what they were saying was for real? And if youd like to, feel free to search "Kito Ryu" in any Search engine and read up on it before you try to tell me and my instructor we do not know what we are talking about.
Glad2BeHere, also if you are found to be correct, please take me under your wing and teach me everything you know..but dont forget your documents. And if you are trying to tell me i shouldn't be on the internet at my age...i find that amusing seems as though you are much older and shouldn't you be at work or something? Training maybe?

Toodles

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#171843 - 08/02/05 09:35 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, all you have done is demonstated exactly my point.

You sat with your teacher and he said.......

You did not speak to any of the concerns that I mentioned in my post nor to any of the conditions that prompted my approach. What you did was act out exactly the sort of behavior that produces the sort of mis-information that the originator of this thread will take to be true.

Now, lets give the originator of the thread some alternative. KODOKAN JUDO (Jigoro Kano; 1986) has an entire first chapter dedicated to the art of ju-jutsu. It identifies a number of goals including "throwing, hitting, kicking, stabbing, slashing, choking, bending and twisting the limbs, pinning an opponent and defenses against these attacks." Killing is not specified as an intent.

And since Don Draeger in his writing on the origins of ju-jutsu and yawara states that these arts were developed as a non-lethal ALTERNATIVE TO Yoroi Kumi Uchi we might safely conclude that while a technique CAN be lethal that was not the original intent or design of the technique. (See: MODERN BUJUTSU AND BUDO). Draeger also quotes Kano's objection to ju-jutsu. To wit:

"Many ju-jutsu ryu often indulged in dangerous practices such as throwing by rather unfair means, or by wrenching the limbs. This led not a few people who had occasion to witness those wild exercises to deprecate jujutsu as being dangerous and harmful to the body." Death is not mentioned.

This is the way modern practitioners of MA need to communicate information to others. Your snide comments and sarcasm did not make your arguement any more valid and suggested to me that even as you were defending your teacher you are aware that such a way of validating information is fundamentally flawed. FWIW.

BTW: Just as a side note.... among traditionalists such as myself, the use of Japanese terminology to identify Korean material is becoming increasing less accepted. I am probably aware of the technique you mentioned and may have even done it. However, if you are going to address me interms of my own art it would probably be a service to at least use nomenclature appropriate to the art I practice. Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/02/05 09:41 AM)

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#171844 - 08/02/05 09:55 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

Your snide comments and sarcasm did not make your arguement any more valid and suggested to me that even as you were defending your [enter noun here] you are aware that such a way of validating information is fundamentally flawed.


Funny, that's exactly what everyone has been trying to tell YOU...your response was accusing people of judging HOW you say things as oppossed to WHAT you are saying, remember?....and now you want us to sit hear and listen to you lecture someone else about it? not bloody likely mate. FWIWIRS (FWIW in Rocket Science) best wishes.

on topic: JLB, The best defense to being flamed and/or challenged with info you believe to be true is credibility and proof...keep in mind, some people will not even accept proof as a reason to change their views. Still, it's always worth doing your research.

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#171845 - 08/02/05 11:12 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Guys, lose the personal attacks and please stay on topic
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#171846 - 08/02/05 11:22 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
appologies.

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#171847 - 08/02/05 11:29 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Guys, lose the personal attacks and please stay on topic




Agreed, let's not have any flaming, this topic is very interesting after all. Wouldn't want it to be locked.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#171848 - 08/02/05 12:28 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
BTW: I have stuck with Kano because we are speaking of Kito-ryu. However I can also recommend a nifty book by Jun Osana. It goes by one of two names. One is NIHON JUJUTSU ILLUSTRATED and the other is YAWARA- the ancient Japanese art of jujutsu. Koryu Books was where I go my copy but bone up on your Nihongo as it is not yet translated. If Japanese is not your forte' there are plenty of illustrations to study and the level of writing is not that technical that a person with a dictionary couldn't pick it out. (ISBN 4-88317-355-0) FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171849 - 08/03/05 02:28 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Kintama]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
I apologise to MattJ and others who may have found my posts sarcastic (which they were intended to be) and maybe rude. I think maybe i should have had a one on one conversation with G2BH.

Kintama - Thank you

G2BH - i do not understand still. I have provided you with examples yet you still want to argue about this. I do not see this getting anywhere and Kintama is right even proof may not sway peoples opinions if they believe they are "right". And i do not see anything wrong with listening to my instructor when he has a much larger knowledge base on these things than myself, and isn't that what we are there for to learn from our instructors? It goes back to the mechanic thing MattJ brought up. If im interested in Kito Ryu i am far more inclined to speak to a certified instrucor and black belt in the art.
You obviously did not do a search and look at Kito Ryu..which i suggest you should do, Jigaro Kano never said they weren't to kill either..right? And Jigaro Kano having written a book on Judo that you were speaking from...is not a book about Kito Ryu. I believe you were reading from the art he created which as i said was a lifetime of changing the lethal throws and techniques from Kito Ryu to be practisable.
I am going to leave it at that, i feel i have done everything i can to back up my point and if you really want to know..do the search and "read the documents" on it.

BTW: someone has to write these "documents" you need for proof correct? So what makes that someone eligible to write a document you would believe? Do they themselves need a document to prove what they are saying is correct...and a document to prove that...and another one to........

catchya guys

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#171850 - 08/03/05 06:21 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
James,

Strangely enough, I understand where glad2bhere is coming from. In this case, it's to do with a fundamental issue in gathering and validating information for research purposes.

Unfortunately, he is talking at a "level" way above you (and sometimes even I). Sometimes it's easy to forget that the other person at the other end of the computer may not be at the same "level" you are.

So, don't sweat it.

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#171851 - 08/03/05 07:02 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: BigRod]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
Actually in some cases it may be necessary to kill an opponent if it is the only option. For example in a military situation.

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