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#171832 - 07/31/05 11:01 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit

Quote:




Let's not go with the pointless generalizations. Do not start a flame war.

Sorry...didn't mean to make another "pointless generalization." Let me clarify what I meant. I simply mean that the MMA competitions seem to demonstrate techniques that are efficient, brutal, and effective. (Obviously these fighters are very skilled or they wouldn't be fighting professionally.) But I still stand by my belief that as great as the Asian martial arts are, one of the things that has led to their popularity is the fact that they are perceived as esoteric, mysterious, etc., and it appears to me that MMA fighters are very effective without the need to be esoteric or mysterious.

Peace

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#171833 - 08/01/05 01:15 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Tomh777:

"...Granted, I'd stay with martial arts anyway (my current one being aiki jutsu ) simply because I love it. But I honestly do tend to believe that we have been mislead to believe that simply because a martial art is Asian amd esoteric it is somehow superior to American systems....."

The problem as I see it is not a matter of the arts you have identified but your mixed expectations for these arts. The arts are what they are. Each has design flaws and shortcomings. Your search suggests that there is some ultimate art that contains the best points of a variety of arts. I think you need to hear that mixing a number of bits from disparate arts does not give you one great are. Too often the result is some jumble which is less than any of the other single arts.

How many times have you read on this net where somebody asks for the ultimate this or that only to hear someone tell that person that they need to find the art that workd for THEM. Why do you think they are told that. Because there is no one-size-fits-all Ultimate Art. There are only scads of people with variying goals and abilities and the trick is to find the best goodness of fit between what you can do, what you WANT to do and the method of your preference. The rest is just being willing to make a commitment--- pure and simple. You can keep asking questions if you want to but its always going to come back to this over and over again. FWIW.

BTW: Just read your last post. I can say without fear of any real contradiction that the MMA people with whom I have been familiar still have their OWN concept of what is "mysterious" or "esoteric". Some of them are addicted to power, and some are addicted to Image, and some are addicted to a host of other things. Its no different for them than for people who practice TMA.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/01/05 01:19 AM)

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#171834 - 08/01/05 01:22 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
In this case, G2BH is very, very accurate!

-B

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#171835 - 08/01/05 03:13 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
Glad2beHere - i have training tonight and i will get back to you with some information from my instructor who just happens to know ALOT of the background of Kito Ryu. Also if you need documantation to believe anything..What exactly do you believe? I just dont understand i am sorry. Also thats amazing you have been training for 30 years..im not trying to say you haven't but normally people with an attitude similar to your own do not make it even half as far...so could i please have some written documentation to prove your training?
How do you think this whole system works, it goes by trust and we trust each other not to lie about our training, do you need documentation of everyone on here before you listen to them? Also i do not appreciate your attitude towards myself and my instructor given that you have never met either of us.

Sorry to other members...jim

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#171836 - 08/01/05 04:06 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


BTW: Just read your last post. I can say without fear of any real contradiction that the MMA people with whom I have been familiar still have their OWN concept of what is "mysterious" or "esoteric". Some of them are addicted to power, and some are addicted to Image, and some are addicted to a host of other things. Its no different for them than for people who practice TMA.





I've trained at a gym that produces MMA fighters the past year, and I find this completely innacurate. There is nothing mysterious about MMA. Nothing. It's all right there in front of you.

We have our brazil nutriders who answer the phone with "Fale" but i've never seen an MMAist claim Helio can knock you out without touching you.

As for image and power? You'd better look for it elsewhere. Sportfighting is the most humbling activity i've ever undertaken, much more than TMA. Getting tapped out frequently will do that to you.

Sure, there will be pro fighters who are complete puddles of spoo, but that's the nature of televised athletics, and is only about the fact that such a person was predisposed to that to begin with.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#171837 - 08/01/05 09:07 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Ubermint]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Ubermint:

You are NOT READING my post. You are spinning it. Read the post.

I did NOT say that MMA people mimic the behavior of some TMA people who may be encouraging some veneer of exotic thought. I am saying that the MMA world simple has its OWN version, thats all. Read my post without spinning it, THEN respond.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171838 - 08/01/05 09:17 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....How do you think this whole system works, it goes by trust and we trust each other not to lie about our training, do you need documentation of everyone on here before you listen to them? Also i do not appreciate your attitude towards myself and my instructor given that you have never met either of us....."

Sorry, Jim, but it no longer works like that.

Following WW II when US Military started to bring MA back to the States there was a lot of crap shoveled about what it was all about. Instead of helping to clean-up this mis-information folks from back in Japan, Korea and China fed into it. They lied about themselves. They lied about each other. They lied about their arts. You ARE VERY RIGHT. It was suppose to be based on trust and that trust was abused. People like myself are no longer starry-eyed gueppies, sitting at the feet of wise Asian-eyed teachers fawning on every word. If this was ANY other endeavor we would expect sound information, intelligently expressed, and supported with research or documentation.

You don't like my attitude. To bad. Think of me as the "educated consumer" who expects a genuinely intelligent answer to my question.

BTW: You may find this interesting, but in the art in which I train there is a growing number of teachers instructing their students to stay off the Internet. Apparently the rapid exchange of information and the candid way in which things are handled is just a bit more than they can deal with.

BTW: Just a little side note......
If you read some of the stuff that the MMA people are handing out, underneath all the bravado and testosterone there is exactly the same misgivings as I am raising. They are not always as articulate or appropriate in the way they express themselves but the MMA people DO have a point when it comes to misrepresentation and unsubstantiated information. Perhaps you would rather press your point with one of them, yes? Near as I can tell "I" seem to be going pretty easy on you. FWIW.
Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/01/05 09:56 AM)

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#171839 - 08/01/05 08:13 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:



The problem as I see it is not a matter of the arts you have identified but your mixed expectations for these arts. The arts are what they are. Each has design flaws and shortcomings. Your search suggests that there is some ultimate art that contains the best points of a variety of arts. I think you need to hear that mixing a number of bits from disparate arts does not give you one great are. Too often the result is some jumble which is less than any of the other single arts.




Glad2behere
Actually my rant was more about the perception that in the 1970's when martial arts were really beginning to gain ground they were marketed with this idea of superiority to western fighting systems. However, with the popularization of MMA's and more ultilitarian self defense systems the "superiority" of traditional systems is now being called into question (that's a good thing from my perspective).

Rather than waste more space I'll simply say that my rant was just a rant and not a well thought out logically organized coherent argument. So I will waste no more space on the subject...but...

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#171840 - 08/01/05 08:20 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Glad2behere,

Since you practice hapkido...are the throws in hapkido designed to kill?...Oh my gosh we're back to the original subject...You seemed to draw a distinction between maiming throws and killing throws...Does Hapkido actually have such a distinction?..and if it does..How does Hapkido categorize their throws for self defense purposes?

No I'm not being sarcastic...I really am curious about this.

Peace


Edited by tomh777 (08/01/05 08:23 PM)

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#171841 - 08/01/05 10:24 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Tomh777:

OK this is going to be a little unfair to the Hapkido arts because I am going to give you a kind of "Readers Digest" response with the understanding that any time this is done there is the risk of not giving as full a picture as possible. Here goes.

The origin of modern Hapkido begins with Choi Yong Sul who reported that he studied yawara and used these skills to help in rounding up deserters in Japan while he lived as an ex-pat there. The history of yawara has its roots in providing a non-lethal alternative to otherwise very probably lethal intent in addressing ones' opponents. Thats about one half of the story though.

The other half of the story goes back before Choi Yong Sul to the various practices some of which were and are studied to include their lethality. The Korean sword method teaches the sword as a lethal art and not as a sport. The emptyhanded material is intended to stop the conflict and re-establish the "hwa" of the community by whatever means is most expedient. There is no "sport application". The stick/spear/cudgeol material are taught as adjuncts to the emptyhand material. And all of these things have been recorded and maintained since 1600 down to the present day and recorded in the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI.

The hardest single issue that practitioners of the Hapkido arts have to adjust to is the adoption of potentially lethal skills with an eye towards never being able to actually use these. This is such a difficult problem that many people even in the Hapkido arts are constantly chipping away around the edges looking for ways in which to answer the age-old question "does this stuff really work." To make matters worse there is a never ending line of folks who constantly look to goad practitioners into "proving" their skills. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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