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#171812 - 07/28/05 04:36 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Leo_E_49]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Gets my vote.

BTW: Given all of the deathes in the Boxing Ring over the years does anyone know punch was specifically desig---

oh, never mind.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (07/28/05 04:37 PM)

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#171813 - 07/28/05 04:49 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: BigRod]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Of course throws are designed to kill. Just depends whether you are trying to throw them either the "-jitsu" or "-do"
way (no pun intended). A forty five degree takedown(moving to the other persons side, grabbing the far shoulder, and stepping the closet leg behind their closet leg to you, then shooting the leg through and pushing down with the arm grabbing the farthest shoulder. Kinda get it? I don't know the japanese/korean/etc. names...) will only throw them on their back (which if you are AMAZINGLY strong you COULD kill them). But, if you reverse it trying to throw them forward onto their head, there's a much better chance of putting them under. I know that one, but the rest I haven't learned yet. LIke I said when I started, you're either throwing in the -jitsu (combat form) or the -do (way) version, one being GREATLY concerned with combat application and philosophical aspects second, or one not so concerned with combat as it is developement of the person.
Personal developement isn't crucially related with fighting capability, so the killing throws aren't there. Make sense?

Also, you cannot honest expect to muscle your way to killing someone like that. It's impractical. Then, how could it work for the rest of us who don't strength train like it's a second religion?
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#171814 - 07/28/05 10:48 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Leo_E_49]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Gee,

I didn't mean to stir up so much controversy with my 2 cents. But the discussion was interesting anyway...I think it would be even more interesting to continue the discussion in the direction of what are some "sport throws" that can be made lethal and how to do that (as a couple have already discussed seoinage and o soto gari in that fashion).

My 1.5 cents

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#171815 - 07/28/05 10:57 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
One more point...

It just goes to show you...Guns don't kill people sloppy judoists do...But wait a minute maybe the persons bad ukemi "killed" them...therefore since ukemi can lead to death...ukemi must have been designed to kill people not the throwing techniques...

Who says I never paid attention in logic class?!?!?!?!

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#171816 - 07/29/05 07:27 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol...funny post tom

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#171817 - 07/29/05 09:05 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Tomh777:

I think what you need to consider is that in a kind of weird and wacky way you are pushing us to talk about something that touches on much of what constitutes "traditional" MA versus the "image" that a lot of people want to sell as "traditional MA."

Many people like to represent MA as some sort of world of deadly this and lethal that and I am not saying that things CAN'T be used this way. For instance, if I learn to restrain someone with an arm around the throat, perhaps I don't INTEND to choke that person but with a bit more pressure I CAN choke them. Taken a step farther, that retraint cum choke CAN become lethal by simply extending the time that I keep the choke on, yes? NOW, do I then represent what I do as teaching "restraining techniques" or "lethal techniques"? I submit that marketing demands would push me to represent what I do as "lethal techniques". People want power (whether they can handle the responsibilities or not) and telling them that they will learn to restrain people simply does not carry the marketing atrraction that learning to be "lethal" does, right? If I teach Judo and tell people they can throw somebody down, how much more saleable will my skill set be if I can tell people they will be learning "lethal throws".
See what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171818 - 07/29/05 09:48 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: BigRod]
Legend of the Hungry Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 221
I can potentially see serious injury from certain throws, and I can definately see throws as a way to avoid grappling, but killing? I dunno. - bigrod

learn your breakfalls, and you will be ok.
_________________________
Hakkyokuseiken Senpuken-terry bogard

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#171819 - 07/29/05 10:04 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Legend of the Hungry Wolf]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
It's really rather simple to learn advanced throwing mechanics, not the basic execution drills. Whether death or serious injury can occur depends on the ride you take the thrower, and what portion of their body is stressed from the trow. But almost nobody trains that way any more, even if the potential exists (but this does exist in certain arts).

But outside of a discussion of potentials, the rest if vapor ware. Becuase to prove it who has consistently killed people with their throws to prove the point. Who wants to, who wants to teach that and who wants to learn that.

Outside of accident, nobody is going to step up with the proof except books villians, fiction.

Almost all training is intelligently modified to move away from those potentials, for who needs to work those skills. If you can redirect an attacker with a throw, you're alive, why do you feel you should take it to one of the next levels? And if you can't make the basics work, you're hardly going to make a dent with the far more advanced variation principles.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#171820 - 07/29/05 12:04 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Victor Smith]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Agreed, after all you can't train "killer" variations in the Dojo (without becoming very short of training partners very soon).
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#171821 - 07/29/05 12:13 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Victor Smith]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Victor:

"....Almost all training is intelligently modified to move away from those potentials, for who needs to work those skills. If you can redirect an attacker with a throw, you're alive, why do you feel you should take it to one of the next levels? And if you can't make the basics work, you're hardly going to make a dent with the far more advanced variation principles......"

I agree with everything that you wrote and will add only one small piece.

From where I sit, the idea of "lethality by design" is a major piece of MA marketing. For instance, in the Hapkido arts, I don't kid myself that I am teaching anything but a discipline that includes the use of deadly force. Its there for the using. Do I encourage it? No. Do I advertise it. No. In fact, just like you say, it would be all but impossible to propagate an art if people knew up front that they could die in mere training even if only by accident. This then is why we use "safety falls", learn to breakfall and often times comply with techniques rather than resist. Nobody I know wants to purposely get hurt, right? In fact this is the main reason I teach no children. They simply cannot take responsibility for the potential harm they might do, even if only by accident. Hell, I have my hands full just getting the ADULTS to appreciate what they are dealing with!!

But to publicly represent something as lethal by design or intent, seems to me like selling a gun as "damn effective for killing people." FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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