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#171822 - 07/29/05 10:10 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Yes, yes...I wholeheartedly agree with you guys. While martial arts (of many variations...throws or no throws) carry with them the ability to execute "deadly force" it seems to me a very important (and wonderful) piece of many arts is the opportunity to develop the discipline, self control and self esteem so you can actually learn to difuse a fight without fighting, restrain a person rather than break a bone, etc., etc.

Regarding marketing, it seems to me I've seen a million ads on how "xyz martial art" will "improve your grades, discipline, self esteem", etc, but I rarely see an ad for a school that says, "join our dojo and you can become a killing machine."

In spite of my frequent sarcasm, I actually see martial arts as most importantly a way of obtaining peace via obtaining inner peace.

My 1.75 cents.

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#171823 - 07/30/05 12:24 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hmmm...

After further thought and reading through these posts, I've had somewhat of change in my original thoughts.

Of course I know the throws we practice can cause injury. Even I accidently broke someone's collarbone in training with a drop seoi-nage. I've seen people thrown on their head (myself included), and fail to get up right away. And this was on mats. So, change the surface to the ground or concrete, the possiblity for injury, perhaps death, skyrockets.

My guess is that in fuedal Japan throws were probably not "designed to kill", but were used knowing that the potential for serious injury existed, and the successful completion of a throw would put your opponent in a position where you (or someone else) could use a weapon to finish the job.

The short version of my post is throws were probably used as an instrument to assist in the demise of your opponent, and maybe on rare occassions was actually the cause of his demise.


Edited by BigRod (07/30/05 12:30 AM)

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#171824 - 07/30/05 12:57 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Quote:



Regarding marketing, it seems to me I've seen a million ads on how "xyz martial art" will "improve your grades, discipline, self esteem", etc, but I rarely see an ad for a school that says, "join our dojo and you can become a killing machine."




I have to say that, in all honesty, the suggestion of lethality is more implicit than explicit but it is definitely there. I think it has probably gotten a real boost from the NHB and military training systems such as the Spetnatz (sp?) training of the former USSR and the SF forces of the US. In fact I would almost go so far as to say that if one were to want to identify "killing throws" it would probably be better to look at these utilitarian systems than go weeding through the orthodox practices of the Asian MA. One way or another you are going to have to find a partner who is willing to take it to the limit. How else will you know that your throw is REALLY lethal? I think you will have a lot harder time finding a practice partner than the material itself. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171825 - 07/31/05 01:41 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
MattJ - Once again you bring things back into perspective and i just want to say thankyou for that.

Glad2beHere - You question my abilitly and knowledge..maybe fair enough because i am young. But I cannot possibly believe you questioned my sensei's abilitly and knowledge. If there is anyone who knows about the origins and the history of Kito Ryu it is my sensei. He is the 5th registered Kito Ryu sensei and to our knowledge one of the only Kito Ryu instructors around.
Another thing i do not understand is that you question our knowledge and claim that i was spreading around BS because my master "said so" that i believe it must be true. Yet you show no knowledge on the subject yourself so what do you think gives you the right to challenge what i said? Do you know Kito Ryu? Do you the origin of Kito Ryu? Do you the person who invented Kito Ryu and his intentions for it? Do you know any history of Kito Ryu? ..just a quick question for you...how long have you trained in MA?

thanks jim

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#171826 - 07/31/05 02:18 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Sorry, Jim, but you are way out in left field.
Please re-read my post again and stop "interpreting" or "spinning" what I am saying.

The fact is that you are not guarenteeed to know what you are talking about just because you take Kito-ryu. I can pretty much challenge what you say anytime I want to. There is no reason I have to believe what you write any more than you need to believe me. In this particular case I am willing to accept what you say IF you can substantiate it in some way other than "oral tradition". Maybe MOST people will take whatever gets handed out. I don't. I need substantiation and when I don't get it I say something. What part of this don't you understand?

The fact is that you teacher is not guarenteed to know what he is talking about because he says he teaches Kito-ryu.I have known plenty of teachers who report that they teach something and have not a clue about what they are doing let alone the background of their art.


NOW--- if he has Menkyo Kaiden in Kito-ryu and wishes to cite the scroll he was awarded which states specifically that technique X is intended to be executed so as to kill the opponent THEN I will agree that your statement has validity.

As far as my own vitae I have 30 years in the MA of which the last 20 have been in the Hapkido arts--- and I STILL would not blame someone for asking me to document what I say.
I am afraid that the old saw about "'cuz teacher says" just no longer cuts it anymore. Not for me anyhow. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (07/31/05 02:24 PM)

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#171827 - 07/31/05 02:40 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Glad- Actually, you can only logically challenge a person's argument via attacking their credibility when the person's argument is based on their testimony (i.e. a story or description of their experience). The fact that it comes from him or his instructor has nothing to do with the validity of the argument.

Just a little excerpt from Logic class .
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#171828 - 07/31/05 04:41 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

The fact is that you are not guarenteeed to know what you are talking about just because you take Kito-ryu.




Oy vey. However, since he DOES study it, that does lend SOME credibility to his claims. If I need to get my car fixed, I am more likely to listen to a mechanic than a chef about what the problem might be.

Quote:

I can pretty much challenge what you say anytime I want to.




Yes you can. However, when you do this with no clear basis, we call this trolling.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#171829 - 07/31/05 07:20 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear MattJ:

You are, of course, free to "call" it anything you like. I stand by my arguement.
Lets take your example of a mechanic.

I will take my car to a mechanic who has attended a training school resulting in a skill set for repairing my car. Well and good. I am not so sure I would entrust my car to someone who comes from a "family of mechanics" but thats a different issue.

Would I believe that a person who is a mechanic can speak to the history of automobiles? Would I believe that a mechanic would know the engineering issues that resulted in one design result over another? It does not follow. A mechanic has a skill set. He may or may not have the intellectual arguements for WHY he does what he does. He MAY but there is not guarentee and there is nothing to say that a mechanics is provided this information when he is in training. I would want to know if he is certified to speak to these particular issues just like, were I a bank I would want to know if his training included running a small business.

It does NOT follow that just because a person trains in an art he knows what he is talking about.

I t does NOT follow that just because a teacher instructs in an art that he knows what he is talking about.

Sorry. I still need more than this. Call me a troll or not. I still need more than this. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171830 - 07/31/05 10:12 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
I have to say that, in all honesty, the suggestion of lethality is more implicit than explicit but it is definitely there.

Ah, good point...otherwise why would it be called martial arts?...unless that actually refers to artistic creations by martians.

I think it has probably gotten a real boost from the NHB and military training systems such as the Spetnatz (sp?) training of the former USSR and the SF forces of the US. In fact I would almost go so far as to say that if one were to want to identify "killing throws" it would probably be better to look at these utilitarian systems than go weeding through the orthodox practices of the Asian MA.

Now here is where I find myself frustrated...If you were a kid in Michigan growing up in the 1970's and you wanted to learn "self defense" you basically had 2 choices, either karate or judo (if you were really hip you might know about tae kwon do). Now all these arts were marketed as better than boxing...better than wrestling, etc. Even Muhammed Ali tried karate to improve his boxing. If you had even just a year or two of judo or karate you could easily take on any 5th or 6th grade bully. Now 30 years later we Americans have a lot more systems to choose from (and a whole lot meaner streets to deal with). Along comes the MMA crowd with their minimalist techniques and they're just beating the snot out of each other. So after all these years of training (in my case it's only 10 years total spread out) I'm left wondering what is the most effective way to defend myself. Granted, I'd stay with martial arts anyway (my current one being aiki jutsu ) simply because I love it. But I honestly do tend to believe that we have been mislead to believe that simply because a martial art is Asian amd esoteric it is somehow superior to American systems.

My 1/2 cent rant.

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#171831 - 07/31/05 10:21 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Tomh777 -

Quote:

Along comes the MMA crowd with their minimalist techniques and they're just beating the snot out of each other.




Let's not go with the pointless generalizations. Do not start a flame war.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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