FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 42 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn, Ron_Cooley, businns
22902 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 11
trevek 6
cxt 6
JKogas 5
futsaowingchun 2
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Iaido movements speed
by TooNice
04/14/14 01:47 PM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
Today at 01:18 PM
centerline concepts
by Dobbersky
07/18/14 06:14 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:38 AM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Forget all that health stuff
by TaekwonDoFan
06/29/14 03:18 AM
Forum Stats
22902 Members
36 Forums
35563 Topics
432448 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 3 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#171802 - 07/28/05 12:44 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I concurr, Years ago I had a Jujitsu Instructor say the same thing of the hip throw?, Osoto gari and shoulder throw among others that the way U guide the Uke to the ground determines what part of the body you want to hit the ground 1st neck and shoulder/injur or back/safety. So a throw could be potentially fatal.

I know they can be fight stopping you drive a guy with a throw on to a concrete floor or hard tile 7-10 times if he don't know how to break his fall he can't breath or hes' Ko'd. In the least he'd fell on his arm/broke it or slammed his ankle/broke it and can't get up. Even a good body slam can takes the wind out of their sails.

But as mentioned this guiding angle thing is not practiced and in a pinch we fight the way we train, slaming them to their back or face down and holding onto or pull up on their arm assistting their breakfall or fall.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#171803 - 07/28/05 01:18 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

You practice Kito-ryu. What do you know about the history and the philosophy behind it?




Quote:

Your teacher teaches Kito-ryu, but what does HE know about the art's history and the philosophy behind it?(and BTW: saying that he is XYZ dan ranking so he MUST know won't cut it.




History and philosphy do not equal application. Regional differences can change how a technique is applied in any case.

Quote:

What documentation does he have that corroborates what he is saying.




Hardly definitive if there is no documentation. History is rife with cultural information erasures by force, nature or simply time. Korean MA, for example.

Quote:

Who else agrees with his information and his POV?




I see no need to take a gang-up-on-the-guy tone because you disagree with him. How many people here disagree with G2BH's attitude? See how that comes out?

FWIW, I think the argument is something of a non-issue here. Can we agree that SOME throws probably were designed to kill? Some were not. Which throws are we talking about?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#171804 - 07/28/05 01:28 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Matt:

I am using the current situation to point up how erroneous information gets past around. This is the same way such things like "everybody KNOWS that Chinese Boxing started at the Shaolin Temple" keeps getting handed around.

The question is not "CAN" a throw be lethal. Anything can be made lethal including too much air and too much water. The issue was whether the throw was "designed" to be lethal. A VERY different view.

Now some ryu DO specialize in various focuses. But, I am not willing to sit quietly and watch people pander to half-truthes. If someone wants to make a declaration about the nature and intent of an art or technique all I am stating is that they be prepared with something more than "'cuz teacher said so.", thats all. FWIW.

Regards.

Bruce

Top
#171805 - 07/28/05 01:28 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
domestic accidents by falls happen all the time...if someone was skilled enough to control the angle and location of a throw, I guess it is reasonable to assume consistent technique being developed. The only way I could imagine a death from a fall being the max height of lets say 2 meters, is if they break their neck or head trama. I've only witnessed 1 technique which can flip a body with enough force to cause this type of damage, a scissor sweep. one leg behind the thigh, one leg on the chest with a violent twist of the hips will turn a body upside down.

I'm still sceptical of throws being designed to kill however. with all of the good questions g2bh brings up.

Top
#171806 - 07/28/05 02:01 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

The question is not "CAN" a throw be lethal. Anything can be made lethal including too much air and too much water. The issue was whether the throw was "designed" to be lethal. A VERY different view.




Quote by Kintama -

Quote:

I'm still sceptical of throws being designed to kill however. with all of the good questions g2bh brings up.




Again, we seem to be arguing intent with application. A back suplex certainly seems designed to kill by smashing someone's head on the ground. It is outlawed in many MMA tournaments, speaking to it's (presumed) deadliness.

Now, if you asking how often does it work that way? Probably not as much as it should. But that is true for many other techniques such as throat strikes, even gun shots. IMHO, this whole question is a little too vague to be debated properly.

So, SOME throws probably were designed with lethal intent, even if they don't always work that way.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#171807 - 07/28/05 02:19 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Just because we don't train by killing people doesn't mean that a technique can't be used to kill. When kicking our sparring partners, we don't aim to kill, however several court cases will tell you that a single kick can kill. Was the intent of the kicking style to kill? Only the creator knows for sure.

It's like saying guns don't necessarily have to be used to kill either. You can use them for target practice on inanimate objects. It's people who use guns to kill. The same way, people can use throws to kill if done in a certain manner.

You can't train throws in a killing fashion any more than you can shoot at one another with real bullets (i.e. throwing by changing angles so vital areas are damaged, I won't discuss this on an open forum and I suggest none of you do either).

In my mind, a throw is a very powerful tool designed to cause severe bodily harm to a target person with a risk of death. The same could be said of a gun (although the damage is greater in that case and a gun is classified as a weapon whereas no human is classified as a weapon). This is my personal opinion only.

Arguing that the thread says "designed to kill" is wasting time over symantics. The real issue is underlying that of the literal topic header. The article says "intent" is killing an opponent, this indicates a person choosing to use a throw in this manner, rather than the throw being created with this in mind. If the original topic poster literally meant "designed" as meaning that the original intent was to use throws only for killing (as a gun is used), please clarify upon this issue so we can go into further research about the intent of the creators of these throws.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/28/05 02:30 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#171808 - 07/28/05 02:43 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: MattJ]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I agree with what you are saying.
I'm not arguing over symantics, I'm just trying to stay on topic.
anybody can say sometimes this and maybe sometimes that... which would make them never wrong. I'm curious to hear info of throwing technique developed for the purpose of killing during a time when it was less socially unacceptable to kill...like, I don't know say, feudal Japan perhaps?

Top
#171809 - 07/28/05 03:21 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Kintama]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
In Feudal Japan, they had things like swords, bows and knives to do that sort of thing. As such I think it's unlikely that a killing throw would be developed because unarmed combat was supposedly a last ditch effort when disarmed, presumably the priority of unarmed combat was to disarm your opponent's weapon for your use or provide enough time to retrieve a disarmed weapon. But I would be interested to hear if there is such a throw specifically designed for the task too.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#171810 - 07/28/05 03:40 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: BigRod]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


I can potentially see serious injury from certain throws, and I can definately see throws as a way to avoid grappling, but killing? I dunno.




Throwing is grappling. If you are throwing, you are already grappling.



I propose a new rule: Noone is ever allowed to make a "Was (art/technique) designed to kill?" thread ever again.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

Top
#171811 - 07/28/05 03:55 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I second that.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
Page 3 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga