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#171792 - 07/27/05 01:14 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
You guys are thinking to much and missing the obvious. Most any judo or aikido throw in its roots was a throw designed to maim or kill. Judo and aikido modified the throws to make them safe for general consumption. For instance with eri seoinage (a judo technique, a type of shoulder throw) if instead of pulling your arms up at the end of the throw to protect your opponents fall, you drive your arms straight down to the ground thereby breaking your oponents neck. Doing the step and thrust throw (aikido) how about using that palm and instead of pushing your opponents chin you do a palm strike to the chin (bye bye neck)...or better yet you miss the chin completely and strike your opponents windpipe as you're throwing him(bye bye breathing).

Those are just a couple of examples of nice things you can do if you take aikido and judo back to their roots. This doesn't answer the armor issue but since not to many people wear armor these days (unless maybe they've gone off their meds or something) I guarantee you there's all kinds of throws that are effective for killing.

Man I love being a pacifist!

Peace

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#171793 - 07/27/05 06:59 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I read a transcript of a court case where someone in Australia (now in jail) kicked an innocent bystander in the head. The person kicked fell over and cracked his head open on concrete and died instantly.

Falling on a hard surface, especially if you are not trained to do so can most certainly be lethal. Throws cause people to fall very hard on the ground, and so can be lethal too. I would also say that someone landing on their head would probably suffer spinal injury even on a soft surface. so yes, throws can be very dangerous indeed if breakfalling is not trained and the throws are done on the wrong kind of surface.
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#171794 - 07/27/05 09:00 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Tomh777:

".....You guys are thinking to much and missing the obvious......"

We are SUPPOSE to be thinking, and as far as I am concerned there is WAY too little of it done on these various MA nets. And it is WAY too easy to hand out bad information. Look at the one sentence you used. In a single sentence you included "killing" and "maiming" in the same sentence. These are two VERY different intentions and are essentially the dividing line between the earliest armour grappling and its later yawara counterpart. By extension is it also a mistake to confuse "yawara" material with its foundation in "sen sen" philosophy with "aiki" material founded in "go no sen". When people start painting in these broad brush strokes the result is that individuals in the MA are poorly informed and start passing around incorrect information.

We are animals who use "words" to communicate, and if this is not done accurately then misinformation gets passed around. The MA area is rife with bad information because people often pass around what they guess is accurate, or what SEEMS to be accurate.

Now I can hand out all sorts of resources where people can find accurate information but I can't MAKE you go read it. For instance, if you want to say that Judo comes from arts intended to "kill and main" thats fine. People need to hear that there isn't any published material by Kano that supports this view. You are painting with too broad a brush and giving people the wrong impression. Having a technique "designed" for killing (the subject of this thread) and something that CAN BE used for killing are two disctinctly different intentions. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171795 - 07/27/05 05:45 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Okay,

I stand corrected...(I think) I'll do my research and find out to what extent kito ryu and tenshin shinyo ryu (the roots of judo) were meant to kill, and to what extent daito ryu (alledgedly the primary root of aikido) were meant to kill. If you want to distinguish between terms such as maim and kill I guess that's fine. But in many cases the issue would seem to be to what extent additional force is used in a technique to turn it from a maiming into a killing technique or doing subtle things like changing angles to turn it into a more lethal technique.

I appreciate you're desire to think things through clearly.

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#171796 - 07/27/05 06:51 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Good Man.

And let me throw out one other bit for you.

Daito-ryu didn't get called that until somewhere about 1918. And it didn't have a comprehensive curriculum until Takeda Tokimuna (Takeda Sokakus' son) worked to build such a curriculum many many years after his fathers death in 1943.

Why is this important? Because Daito-ryu is ONLY considered the precursor to Aikido because Ueshiba is identified with Takaeda Sokaku. What is forgotten is that Ueshiba has Menkyo Kaiden in at least two other arts. If I were going to investigate this I would go over to AIKIDO JOURNAL Net and make nice with the people there, get a copy of Stanley Pranin's book (See: Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu) and then find some people who are heavy into Koryu arts (See: Meik Skoss; Ellis Amdur). That should get your feet planted firmly in the right direction. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171797 - 07/27/05 09:21 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Thanks for the info.

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#171798 - 07/28/05 01:35 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
BgRdNk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 2
Try looking into Mongolian wrestling for throws designed purely to kill or cripple.
_________________________
You are permitted in times of great danger to walk with the devil until you have crossed the bridge

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#171799 - 07/28/05 05:00 AM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: tomh777]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
I am sorry guys but i am with tomh777 on this one.. I train and have trained in Kito Ryu jiu jitsu for close to 8 years and throws with the intention to kill is what the traditional art was all about. Also tomh is spot on with the way throws have been changed to make it possible to use them in free practise and is 100% about how the slight change of an angle, a different grip etc have come into these throws to make them possible for free practise or Randori. I myself do not know many throws which are designed to kill, but my sensei knows alot and has shown myself and the higher ranks of our class some of these throws that really make you shiver.

my 2 cents..thanks jim

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#171800 - 07/28/05 12:11 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
And I am going to step up and say that this is a perfect example of what I spoke of earlier.

OK. Lets have some honesty here. How many people who read Mr. Boltons' post thought to themselves,

"well, lets see.... He practices Kito-ryu and he got the information directly from his teacher. Conclusion? What he said must be true."

This is how it happens. So lets take this a step at a time.

a.) yes. You practice Kito-ryu. What do you know about the history and the philosophy behind it?

b.) Yes. Your teacher teaches Kito-ryu, but what does HE know about the art's history and the philosophy behind it?(and BTW: saying that he is XYZ dan ranking so he MUST know won't cut it.)

c.) What documentation does he have that corroborates what he is saying.

d.) Who else agrees with his information and his POV?

The title of this thread is "Throws designed to kill". I would like to see incontrovertible evidence by way of history, scrolls or testimony by the originator of the art that the throws were expressly designed to take life. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#171801 - 07/28/05 12:15 PM Re: Throws designed to Kill? [Re: glad2bhere]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
g2bsomewhere,

I feel ya! The moment I read this I knew there was a conspiracy theory in here somewhere. By the way I love potatoes for breakfast if they are fried.FWIW.
Best wishes,
-Brian
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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