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#170553 - 07/13/07 11:22 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. >>

In the Seitei-gata (Seitei-iai) a well done Shiho-giri is a thing of beauty.


Edited by iaibear (07/13/07 11:32 AM)

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#170554 - 12/21/07 09:11 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Any practioner of any martial art can stage a demo to show anything. Heck, you don't even need to be a martial artist per se. Any capable athlete can, with enough practice, put on a convincing self-defense demo. Demonstration are theater; they have nothing to do with reality. And the reality is if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you are in serious danger, regardless of what art you practice or how expert you are.

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#170555 - 12/22/07 02:37 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Any practioner of any martial art can stage a demo to show anything. Heck, you don't even need to be a martial artist per se. Any capable athlete can, with enough practice, put on a convincing self-defense demo. Demonstration are theater; they have nothing to do with reality. And the reality is if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you are in serious danger, regardless of what art you practice or how expert you are.




That seems logical but I dont think that was the question.
So what is your answer to dealing with multiple attackers
in a real scenario and how would you train it?


Jude

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#170556 - 12/22/07 06:38 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Well, I just don't think there is much you can do when faced with multiple attackers except try to escape. The idea that one can training for such a confrontation strikes reminds me of the duck-and-cover films of the 1950s, where American kids were implicitly told they could survive a nuclear bomb if only they took care to stay under their desks.

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#170557 - 12/23/07 01:41 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I hear that a lot, about it being impossible to take on multiple attackers. And though I agree that running, if possible, is ALWAYS the best answer...I've known and seen several people take on multiple opponents.

All of them, except one, were trained. One was (is) a Thai kickboxer and I watched him take down 4 bouncers at a local bar.

Multiple attackers seems to come down to mindset, will, ability to take shots, and ability to give them, as well as evading (evading here can also mean evading takedown attempts, so knowing how to sprawl might be useful).

The thing is, you're not going to do well against multple opponents who are as good as you, unless your lucky.


Edited by Ames (12/23/07 01:43 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#170558 - 12/23/07 04:35 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Well, I just don't think there is much you can do when faced with multiple attackers except try to escape. The idea that one can training for such a confrontation strikes reminds me of the duck-and-cover films of the 1950s, where American kids were implicitly told they could survive a nuclear bomb if only they took care to stay under their desks.




Except try to escape?
Doesnt where the event is taking place have anything to do with it? A good friend of mine was pushed down stairs then set upon by 4 guys who were garbage in a 1 in 1.(weapons aside) Ok people will say awareness but when there are a lot of people around I should imagine it cant always be used.
Trying to escape is a very broad answer. Ok say a person is
in a street 4 on to 1 has been kicked in the leg so running isnt an option. I didnt realy look at the demo ( was there one) how would you think is the best way to train for that event?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/23/07 04:43 PM)

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#170559 - 12/23/07 05:07 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ames]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I hear that a lot, about it being impossible to take on multiple attackers. And though I agree that running, if possible, is ALWAYS the best answer...I've known and seen several people take on multiple opponents.

All of them, except one, were trained. One was (is) a Thai kickboxer and I watched him take down 4 bouncers at a local bar.

Multiple attackers seems to come down to mindset, will, ability to take shots, and ability to give them, as well as evading (evading here can also mean evading takedown attempts, so knowing how to sprawl might be useful).

The thing is, you're not going to do well against multple opponents who are as good as you, unless your lucky.




Hi

These are just my thoughts from my studies.
I agree and I think it is getting over the adrenalin dump. So realy I am lead to the conclusion that training should be mind training as well as physical training.
Internal and external.

If this form of training includes the use of chi then that has to be a good thing.
From what I read of the founder of Aikido he was very much into the mind side of training as well as the physical.

The thai boxer maybe wasnt aware of or didnt care about the chi aspect. But more than likely he was using the description of chi in that scenario.

Mind set on one thing. No other or very little thoughts for anything else. Fear to a mimimum. The brains full capacity on that given task. Using the part of the mind he can control not the part of the mind he cant control stopping him doing what he did.

From my readings that is what the founder of Aikido was aiming for should a situation determine fight as opposed to leaving or getting out of the situation.

So back to the demo and the original topic. Is the use of multipull attackers meant to be part of the original training from the founder of aikido? I think it was.



Wristtwister spoke of a woman feeling his chi on a I think it was a wrist lock. I didnt understand it fully at first. I am beggining to see what he meant.

Dealing with multipull attackers would need a vast amount of
concentration, physical ability and zero or minimum adrenalin dump or rather the use of adrenalin for fight and/or flight.

Jude

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#170560 - 12/27/07 03:47 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: jude33]
Panzerhaust Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 4
As an aikido practitioner I'm going to say these things and clarify this whole thread.

One thing very many people either forget or don't know is that aikido isn't a total system. Ueshiba Morihei's students were originally already trained martial artists so he did not have to instruct them in many things such as striking and other basic martial arts ideas.

O-Sensei himself said that atemi (striking) is 90% of a fight. This means that aikido is an art of deadly opportunity. You wait for the opportunity to unleash it. This means we must also know how to strike, using whichever system you choose.

O-Sensei also said not all techniques work on all people. This is true of any art. Because of the varied body structures, endurances, and resistances of human beings not every kick, punch, lock, or otherwise will work on everyone. This means that if your nikkajo is not working, change direction, hit your opponent, or use a different technique.

This also means that we should educate ourselves in other martial arts as well. Not MMA style but learning other systems in true martial arts fashion. I myself study Yoshinkan aikido, judo, muay thai, and wingchun.

Most people think of aikido as these pretty joint locks and throws, done with the greatest ease, and looking like magic. But the truth is that real fights are messy. We train to get our technique as perfect as possible so that when we use it in real life, we can use it well. Also in real life you don't have to use aikido techniques like we train with them. In the heat of a real fight they often revert to being jujutsu techniques again: ikkajo - armbreak, nikkajo - wrist break, hijishime - armbreak...and more.

Also many people say that in aikido it seems like uke is being complacent. Well I have news for you, when you're doing techniques which can break peoples arms or hurl them into the ground with great force, they have to know how to fall, and they have to yield to the technique, otherwise you have no one left to practice with and a room full of broken people.

Also for dealing with multiple attackers it is quite effective. People, unless they're trained military, are generally fairly uncoordinated when attacking as a group. It is difficult to understand O-Sensei's saying about viewing the many as the one until you've studied aikido for a while. When people attack you you can keep them in between eachother, throw them into eachother, use fast techniques to drop opponents and other things which would take a while to mention on here. Maybe I'll start a thread on that.

The problem is that many people view aikido isolated, they forget to look at its history. Aikido is not meant to be used by itself but is meant to help you gain internal power, timing, control, and other assets. It is meant to used in conjunction with another art or arts so that you can take advantage of opportunities presented to you.

Panzerhaust

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