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#170493 - 07/29/05 12:36 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: csinca]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Quote:
This really gets to the heart of so many threads on so many forums. I'm starting to think that if you can really understand this, then you are close to understanding aikido
The truly ironic thing is it I didn't clue into this until I took a "leave of absence" from aikido and started crosstraining!
I think the problem is people see what they want to see. And when they don't see it (their way), it must therefore be wrong. It would be unthinkable to convince them to change their POV. The fact is, that for them to see it in it's true light, they must change their perspective.
It's kinda like painting a picture. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, and you have to step back to take in the overall balance and symmetry. Or to look from the outside in. Or to look sideways in order to gauge the depth. Cross-training tends to have that effect because it constitutes a paradigm shift and forces introspection on your part. 
You know what the truly ironic thing is? It's always been there in front of you (hidden in plain view!), just that you couldn't see the forest for the trees.
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#170494 - 07/29/05 12:53 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: eyrie]
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former moderator
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
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Oh it was there but I wasn't looking for it. Unfortunately I don't think that many aikidoka understand what they do and don't have in their art.
Chris
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#170495 - 07/29/05 03:00 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: Intrepidinv1]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Quote:
I don't think that I would be considered a "newbie" or someone who has just "seen" Aikido.
Sorry, you put the following quote before so I assumed you hadn't actually taken a class in aikido.
Quote:
My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.
Quote:
My major concern is that someone who always practices with partners that "go along to get along" could develop a very false sense of what Aikido techniques could do in an actual combat situation. I think the more realistc approach mentioned by Samarai would be more beneficial.
We've made that mistake once which resulted in a 2nd kyu having his shoulder dislocated quite badly which needed to be pinned. He hasn't returned since and the accident happened about 18 months ago. I believe if we practiced aikido in 'full combat mode', we'd have very many injuries and very few people returning to practice! There are occasions where we have been given the chance to deal with a committed attack in the dojo but as uke takes such a hard fall, it's not something we practice more than twice in any one session.
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#170496 - 07/29/05 04:23 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: KiDoHae]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
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Quote:
Then perhaps you mean jumped implies "without warning"(?).
Not to me.
Quote:
In the context of this thread you mean being attacked without warning by more than one person (?).
Multiple attackers means multiple atttackers - more than one.
It's also a little cheezy, wouldn't you say?
Quote:
They may be standing there or coming at you in group, etc. Difficult, surely. Impossible, perhaps, perhaps not. In this situation you at least have the opportunity to size people up, look for avenues of escape, take a breath and do some quick mental preparations.
Read again. I was not saying it was impossible, I was saying that there is no martial arts training that can consistently produce results in that direction.
How would you even train for that? Attempting to replicate the situation would only result in...well, in a kind of martial "playing house" or LARPing, where your karate/aikido buddies pretend to be "thugs" and any number of other stereotypes you can come up with.
Honestly, suggest a training method for dealing with this situation, making sure it's alive and testable.
Quote:
I might suggest that if you are jumped without warning that is, in and of itself, in a self-defense situation more of an issue than the number of people doing it. Being caught off gaurd by one person is just as bad as four. The fact that ther might be 3 or 4 can only make it worse.
Sure. Nothing wrong with that. My issue is the deflation of the martial jargon that sorrounds these things and allows martial artists to fool themselves in to thinking that they have a chance of taking on a gang.
Quote:
Can you train to repsond to that? Actually to a degree you can. LEOs and military do it all the time. It is mostly done with a relatively limited number of tactics that are trained to be done instinctively. Often times the purpose is to achieve a quick escape and to give you some distance between you and your attacker(s). That is not a "fight", that is a survival defense.
Yes, it's not any kind of a fight. Rather, it's an assault. It's not an "overwhelming numbers situation" or a "survival scenario" or any other such jargon. It is you, in all probability, getting seriously injurered or worse. No martial art can save you from an attack that is a surprise by it's very nature.
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Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children
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#170497 - 07/29/05 04:26 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: Chanters]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
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Deleted. Inflammatory.
Edited by eyrie (07/30/05 08:44 AM)
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Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children
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#170498 - 07/29/05 04:42 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: eyrie]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
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Quote:
There's a BIG difference between learning mode, practice mode, training mode AND demonstration mode. There is an even BIGGER difference between a supposedly uncontrolled and uncompliant "drill" vs a full-on adrenaline pumping survival situation.
That doesn't change the fact (not opinion) that working full out with a nonresisting partner is the best way to train for an actual fight (call it whatever you want, as soon as you throw a punch or lay your hands on the guy, you are fighting).
Quote:
It all depends on how badly you want to get hurt. Coz believe me, if you can't take the ukemi, you won't feel a thing - from the neck down.
Awfully conveinent that the only way one can actually test out your art's effectiveness is to know the breakfalling techniques of your art.
Because, youknow, we're aikidoka, and we have an obligation to not let MMA nutriders get hurt due to uncontrolled wristlocks.
It's most certainly not because we've convinced ourselves that we live in a parralel universe where doing an elaborate combination of ballroom dancing and gymnastics is actual useful training and fear that such a view might be inconsistent with reality.
Quote:
This is equally true of ANY martial art, particularly internal martial arts, where the movements are not quite so overt, compared to an overt defensive system, for example karate. Even with a seemingly overt system like karate, devastatingly simple but highly effective self-defense techniques are hidden (in plain view) inside the various kata. What is not overt is the subtle changes in hand positions and movements that makes it useless (i.e. for demonstration) or honest-to-God self defense techniques.
Honey, i'm tired tonight. Can we do the bunkai debate another time?
Quote:
It seems to me that people who critique aikido's "effectiveness" either haven't trained in it long enough, or haven't made the mental leap, or have problems reconciling the paradoxical nature of the spiritual philosophy. Quite often it's those that haven't even trained in it, that are quick to make judgements, based on their limited (and usually biased) perspectives.
Levelling an accusation of bias on anyone who criticizes your art is classic misderection and evasion.
In other words, it's verbal Aikido.
Which I guess means that the fallacy above is hidden within the movements of Bassai Dai or something.
Quote:
BTW, one McThrowdown with ONE aikido "sensei" is a sweeping generalization. Whilst it may sadly be true and generally indicative across the board, it is still a sweeping generalization.
Well...what can you offer that's equivalent?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children
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#170499 - 07/29/05 05:12 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: Ubermint]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
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[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/mainpic03.jpg[/image] Quote:
[url=www.straightblastgym.com]"
And that says what exactly? It looks like summer camp for GI wannabes going for an excuse to were army gear and camourflage.
[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/isr01.jpg[/image]
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Chanters
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#170500 - 07/29/05 06:21 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: Chanters]
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Member
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 43
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Ubermint makes alot of good points. Alot of Aikidoka have blinders on. If you don't want to do practical technique thats fine, but lose your illusions about them. I am an Aikidoka, and I am also a cop. So my focus is primarly on function/practaity. So when I teach some Kokyu nage techniques for example I preface it, saying you would never use this if actually attacked but this throw helps develop timing and spacing ect... Then we will go on to a varation that is practical.
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#170501 - 07/29/05 06:49 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: Ubermint]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Ubermint, Your posts are getting quite tiresome. Have you got anything constructive to contribute? Or do you just enjoy baiting aikidoka? I don't have to justify anything to you. You are absolutely right. We need to train full out against a "nonresisting partner" (your words... maybe you meant "resisting partner"?) to best prepare for a real fight. Said "nonresisting" partner should not do ukemi, and delete ballroom dancing and gymnastics from the training syllabus. Anything else we need to do to make aikido more palatable to you MMA nutriders? Maybe we should include groundfighting and rename it to MMA/BJJ while we're at it too? What can I offer that's equivalent? Nah, you need to do better than that...
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#170502 - 07/29/05 07:17 AM
Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido
[Re: samurai117]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
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I think in some cases you are right with regards to aikidoka believing the art is the be all and end all but is the same with every other art.
I don't think snippets of aikido should be used to train police or other law enforcement organisations, it takes time, and continued practice to ensure the techniques are of a high standard. The japanese riot police train in Yoshinkan aikido solidly for one year before qualifying for such a role.
Ask me to do osoto gari from judo and I can't execute it at all that very well but I have had a few lessons and been shown how to do the technique. Just because I can almost do it and wouldn't feel comfortable executing that technique in a real situation doesn't mean that it wouldn't work... The same applies to every technique in every art. To say you wouldn't do this or that technique isn't to say that the technique isn't effective, it just means you haven't grasped it yet. I wouldn't try sankyo in a real situation because I think it's a difficult technique FOR ME, but my opinion may change as I gain more experience and with more practice.
Samurai117, what MA do you practice and how long and to what level is your aikido at? Don't take this question the wrong way I am genuinely interested. I do believe what you say about exploring variations within a technique is beneficial in training but you need to fully understand the essence or roots of the technique and feel comfortable with it before trying to add or change bits...
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