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#170443 - 07/23/05 02:20 PM Multiple opponents in Aikido
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello
I was reading the "can aikido be used to take on mutiple attackers?" thread and rember seeing some Aikido demonstrations a while ago. During the demo all the opponents attacked one after another and seemed to have a 1 punch mind set, none of them attacked simutaniously(sorry if the spelling is wrong).
How is this kind of training done from school to school? dose the training vary in intensity by rank or by school? Is being attacked simutaniously an issue?
~MonkeyLegs


Edited by MonkeyLegs (07/23/05 02:30 PM)

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#170444 - 07/25/05 01:21 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
RedRaven Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 6
In My school Aikido can be used to netralize (for lack of a better word) multiple attackers

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#170445 - 07/26/05 01:12 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: RedRaven]
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

In My school Aikido can be used to netralize (for lack of a better word) multiple attackers




Thank you very much for your responce but I was hoping for a little more detail.... When neutralizing multiple opponents are they attacking at the same time? dose it get more intense later in training?

I find it difficult to belive out of all the Aikido threads and people responding to them that no one has an oppinion on these things.
Please dont get me wrong I dont want to start a flame war or anything similar, just a conversation about resistance and intensity during multiple opponent training in Aikido. Im aware no one can go full out while training, but are there scenarios where you have been restrained and have to get out, maybe where 2 or more opponents try to strike you at the same time? dose this differe from school to school? are you set loose to do as you will while playing the team attacking a single person?

~MonkeyLegs

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#170446 - 07/26/05 01:48 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
In O'Sensei's dokas (poems of Aikido), there is one which goes something like "treat the one as many, and treat the many as one". The same saying is repeated in Shioda's book "Total Aikido - The Master Course".

In other words, you treat multiple attackers as one unit and one attacker at a time - whether they are all attacking at once or not.

The principles of dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one. Keep moving to the outside of the group (as a unit) and keep extending. Do not worry about technique or whether uke can take ukemi (that's their problem). Just enter and cut. (Like a hot knife thru butter).

Here's an example vid of Steven Seagal doing multiple attacker randori. Note how he's always moving in and cutting.

http://www.aikijujitsu.ca/Seagal.wmv

However, in practice, (so uke doesn't get hurt), practice must be done more consciously and slowly, for ukes that are not able to do the ukemi as well as they should. nage MUST always protect uke in training.

On the street, you simply act as a mirror, reflecting your attackers' intent.


Edited by eyrie (07/26/05 02:00 AM)

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#170447 - 07/26/05 02:09 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
His (seagals) aikido looks really soft I don't think that stuff would actually work.

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#170448 - 07/26/05 05:56 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And what makes you qualified to judge - on "looks" alone?

Chris has taken ukemi from Sensei Seagal. Ask him what he thinks.

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#170449 - 07/26/05 11:07 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down

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#170450 - 07/26/05 04:12 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

In O'Sensei's dokas (poems of Aikido), there is one which goes something like "treat the one as many, and treat the many as one". The same saying is repeated in Shioda's book "Total Aikido - The Master Course".

In other words, you treat multiple attackers as one unit and one attacker at a time - whether they are all attacking at once or not.

The principles of dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one. Keep moving to the outside of the group (as a unit) and keep extending. Do not worry about technique or whether uke can take ukemi (that's their problem). Just enter and cut. (Like a hot knife thru butter).

Here's an example vid of Steven Seagal doing multiple attacker randori. Note how he's always moving in and cutting.

http://www.aikijujitsu.ca/Seagal.wmv

However, in practice, (so uke doesn't get hurt), practice must be done more consciously and slowly, for ukes that are not able to do the ukemi as well as they should. nage MUST always protect uke in training.

On the street, you simply act as a mirror, reflecting your attackers' intent.




That is very inspiring thank you.
Would you think of "dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one" the same as breaking down a situation? upon encountering verbal abuse from a group of 5 one unit, if 2 attack they become 1 unit, attacks made at the same time are 1 motion from the unit?

~MonkeyLegs

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#170451 - 07/26/05 06:07 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down




This is a very impressive piece of work here but, the uke's are very well trained Aikidoist. They make Seagal look good. I enjoy watching Seagal movies, I have most of them but we cannot allow ourselves as practical martial artist to believe this is real combat, it is not. I would love to believe that a man could train to a level to defeat multiple opponents with that much ease. However, I've been in to many fights, grappling and sparring matches to believe that it was combat looks like. What would happen against untrained opponents. How much of this could he do? Seagal looks very pretty in this, he even fixes his hair one time but people this is not a real fight! I want to believe in Aikido I've even taken lessons in it but this does not cure my doubt of some of the techniques. I will say this Aikido does have moves that work, I've done them on non compliant individuals but I am not a total believer.

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#170452 - 07/26/05 07:53 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Okay, this is a pretty loaded question and there are a lot of different answers on many levels.

In my opinion the art of aikido is probably better suited to dealing with multiple attackers than many other arts. With a concept of flowing, moving and not getting involved with the attacker (or attackers), aikido provides better tools than an art that requires involvement with the attacker (i.e. a series of strikes, powerful or multiple kicks, even a choke requires 3-4 seconds of continuous blood flow restriction where you are tied to that guy...). Remember that it is not within the nature of aikido to actually have to do anything to these guys other than not let them "get you". If your movement is relaxed and efficient and these multiple attackers wear them selves down, lose interest or the landscape changes (the police shows, a busload of your buddies show up...)and you don't get hurt, well then you were successful!

The other half of my opinion on this is that the training methods of most aikido dojos I've visited do not sharpen the tools properly to prepare the aikidoka for that attack. most randori practice that I've seen and done does not allow for what I'll call "realistic" attacks. Nobody diving at you, kicking out your legs or a based combination attack. It's generally an individualistic rush in and attack. The worst is when you are supposed to wait for the nage to turn and see you...

So in summary, the art provides the tools but most practice that I've seen does not sharpen those tools.

Moving on the the Seagal video. Yes I took ukemi from him at a seminar a number of years ago. The man was fast, very fast. I didn't feel him but I did feel the ground suddenly accelerate up and hit me in the back hard enough to take my air for a moment. From my experience, his tools are (or at least were) sharp.

Keep in mind that most of what the public sees is either movies (and we don't need to go there) or demonstrations. It would be foolish to confuse a demonstration with a real fight and I'd have to agree that a real fight wouldn't go down anywhere near what was shown in the video. But then again, is it safe to assume that Seagal Sensei would act the same?

At the same seminar I had the pleasure of doing some jiu-waze (sp?) with Reynosa Sensei and yes we were both playing our roles to a certain extent. I could have attacked much differently and with more intent, but I truly believe that Reynosa Sensei could have changed some of my ukemi from nice rolls and breakfalls to face plants if he changed his intent.

A good demonstration shows the tools in as realistic a light but allows everyone to go home and enjoy the rest of the day.

It's a tough call to make judgements based on demo's, classtime or sparring. Would we judge boxers to be ineffective punchers because they sure do hit each other a lot and sometimes they'll even fight 15 rounds and not knock each other out.

Anyway, those are my thoughts this evening!

Chris

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#170453 - 07/26/05 09:03 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down




Is it that obvious? Wow! You must be a very high level martial artist to be able to perceive that.

My jujitsu sensei is so subtle it is so hard to see what is happening - until you feel it, and you have no choice but to release your grip and wince in pain.

My aikido sensei can generate tremendous force using his hips and transfer the force thru his hands such that it is imperceptible what he is doing - until you feel the incredible kokyu extnsion going through your body, that you have no choice but to take the ukemi.

Here's an excerpt of a story about the famous taiji master, Chen Fa Ke:

Quote:


On another occasion, a champion Mongolian wrestler challenged him. As the wrestler took hold of Chen’s arms, the wrestler just laughed and bowed to Chen. There was no apparent struggle. A few days later, the wrestler visited Chen with many gifts. Chen’s students were puzzled by the visit. The wrestler said, “Didn’t your teacher tell you? He could have thrown me any time. I had no balance at all.” This was an indication of Chen’s high level of skill, humility and good morals; he did not allow the wrestler to lose face in front of his peers.





IMHE, what people see and what they think they see are two different things - until they feel it and then see it again.

So, to the untrained eye, it looks like Seagal is "tapping" people on the shoulders. To the initiated, he is cutting thru their center. Quite different, IMHO.

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#170454 - 07/26/05 09:08 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Good post Chris.

Here's another loaded question:

If you couldn't do the ukemi, what do you think would have happened? i.e. how would you have fared if you didn't do the ukemi (to protect yourself)?

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#170455 - 07/26/05 09:17 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA


My aikido sensei can generate tremendous force using his hips and transfer the force thru his hands such that it is imperceptible what he is doing - until you feel the

I would like to experience this. You see I want to believe in Aikido but I cannot find anyone that can show me the techniques in a more combat effective manner. In my Aikido class we simply rolled with the technique even though we were not being thrown at all. Every now and then a new person wouldn't go along with the program and wouldn't fall. There was this little skinny girl in there and the instructor could not throw her with one of the techniques because she wouldn't play along...all he could say is "we don't have a conflict then" Aikidoist can you help me to have more faith?

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#170456 - 07/26/05 09:29 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
if he has a problem with improvisation, then his aikido is pretty bad and would get destroyed in the streets. the reason why ukes 'crumble' is because the uke DESIRES for the person to get the technique right. Sometimes with oversignify the role of the uke but I think it needs to be addressed more--uke must learn how to 'jam' the technique in order to help the nage develop good kuzushi, using one's center/hips, footwork, etc. If the uke is simply a 'crumbler', then naturally, the nage's technique will crumble. Once a nage develops good body mechanics, you can then do some 'jamming of technique' to facilitate improvisation. This, mind you, is high level aikido and cannot be proficiently accomplished if the nage hasn't developed good basics.

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#170457 - 07/26/05 09:55 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Intrepidinv1,

That's a hard one. You need to find a good teacher. Unfortunately, many people simply "dabble" in this stuff.

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#170458 - 07/26/05 11:25 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I think I can tell the difference between patting on the bank and using extension. So I don't need your untrained eye and "mystical" asian sensei stories to tell me what I"m seeing. now im not sayin all of hsi stuff looked soft but a lot of it looked quesitionable I don't think thats hard to see at all.


Edited by katsuhayai05 (07/26/05 11:28 PM)

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#170459 - 07/26/05 11:45 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm sure you can. It's not hard....

Just out of curiousity, how long have you been doing aikido for and what's your affiliation?

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#170460 - 07/27/05 12:43 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Good post Chris.

Here's another loaded question:

If you couldn't do the ukemi, what do you think would have happened? i.e. how would you have fared if you didn't do the ukemi (to protect yourself)?




If I couldn't take the ukemi I would likely have hit the back of my head on the ground which I think we can all agree would have been bad. As it was, even having taken a decent backfall, I was stunned for a second or so, more than enough time for bad things to begin stacking up on me.

Chris

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#170461 - 07/27/05 12:46 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Canyon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 42
Quote:

but a lot of it looked quesitionable



katsu,
I can definitely see where people can get that. This is especially true near the end when he's just whipping everyone past him (I'm not sure if there's a name for the technique but basically and kukyu throw as they try to grab you with both hands). Here's one thing to consider. If you're an uke charging forward to grab someone's shoulders and at the last second they move one shoulder a hair off the line, you're immediately off balance with a lot of forward momentum. It takes very little effort for nage to throw at that point.

Watch the movie again and notice his subtle movements right before the grabs. He waits until they are commited then begins to set up for it. It helps that his techique is so clean too.

A lot of the higher level instructors I've trained with are just damn near impossible to grab during randori/ki no nagare techniques and that can really leave you off balance with little effort on their side.

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#170462 - 07/27/05 03:44 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Canyon]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I'm not doubting Mr. Seagals ability at all, I just don't think that was a good example for multiple opponent defense. As a demonstration it's fine.

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#170463 - 07/27/05 04:24 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, I'll bite... what's a good example?

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#170464 - 07/27/05 11:54 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

OK, I'll bite... what's a good example?




In my opinion, a good example of a four person randori would be one in which there are four attacks and then you have four attackers that are unable or unwilling to get up for another go. Of course that isn't something we are likely to see in a demo and it sure is hard to practice in the dojo. This puts us back to how we train and what allowances we can make to reuse ukes.

I know when my sensei is performing randori, there are numerous occassions where he is in position to end the game for one of the ukes but instead turns and "throws". I've learned to recognise this and try to learn it.

Randori has always been a weak spot for me, partially because I haven't practiced it much, and partially because part of me wants to take out knees and noses when I get outnumbered.

I did however perform what I believe to be an excellent randori a couple years ago. I was visiting a nearby dojo where I knew a good number of the people and towards the end of class we worked some randori. I think it was three people but it may have been four. I was offered the chance to be nage and on the first round... as the ukes came towards me I immediately closed the distance, cut between two of the oncoming ukes, and ran right out the door into the parking lot.

It came off as a joke, we all laughed and I did a more traditional round that went fine. But I realized that unless I'm trying to defend someone else, it makes so much more sense to use Nike-waza then to prove my technique.

Chris

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#170465 - 07/27/05 12:41 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
What is Nike-waza?

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#170466 - 07/27/05 01:00 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Canyon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 42
Ah yes, the famous nike-waza. Also known as Reebok-waza, adidas-waza, and many other similar techniques. (i.e., getting the heck out of there)

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#170467 - 07/27/05 11:03 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Canyon]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
wow hahah i never heard of that one thats good. I didn't get it Nike lol I was reading it like it was japanese. I'll have to use that one sometime.

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#170468 - 07/28/05 01:10 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Meanwhile, back on topic....

What are some of the principles and strategies one would use for dealing with multiple attackers? Assuming of course, escape (i.e. Nike-waza) is not presently an option and you have to do "something" first before you can disengage from the encounter....

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#170469 - 07/28/05 04:30 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I would say a basic strategy would be to not let your self get encircled by your attackers. A lot of times this happens in practice because of space limitations but in a real situation you should work to get outside of the group so you can run away.

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#170470 - 07/28/05 08:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
In the dojo I attend we sometimes practice dealing with more than one attacker which usually consists of 2 ukes attacking tori and the aim being getting in a position to run. One thing that is emphasised is to aim to prevent other attackers by throwing one uke into the others path which allows you to keep good distance. However it is always reiterated that we shouldn't attempt to deal with multiple attackers unless there's no other option. The same is also expressed with just one attacker.

We've done exercises where the higher dan grades are circled by between 4-9 people and anyone can attack at any time. There are a couple where I have tried to enter and attack the dan grade but they keep throwing other people into my path and I can't get to them. It can be really frustrating and uncomfortable if you don't move out of the way quick enough!

I believe aikido looks at ways in being able to defend against multiple attackers but that's not to say that we can handle ourselves in such a situation comfortably, just that we have an insight of knowing what we might expect. I had a discussion with a practitioner of BJJ who believed that the art in which he practiced outshone every other art. I asked him how, if running wasn't an option he could use his BJJ skills against more than 1 attacker. He couldn't provide an answer. I think this again highlights that every art has its' strengths and weaknesses but in essence they're all useful and can provide much enjoyment!
_________________________
Chanters

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#170471 - 07/28/05 09:00 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Intrepidinv1 -

Quote:

You see I want to believe in Aikido but I cannot find anyone that can show me the techniques in a more combat effective manner. In my Aikido class we simply rolled with the technique even though we were not being thrown at all. Every now and then a new person wouldn't go along




Fair question. Now - Aikido folks bear with me, as my Aikido experience is fairly limited. The issue of "people not going along" works both ways.

The attacker that does not "go along" with the defender may also present a problem by not commiting fully to the actual attack. If one were to start an attack, but then immediately stop the charge, or otherwise lose commitment at the point of entry, the defender no longer has the energy or momentum (whatever you want to call it) to use against the attacker.

I have done some multi-attacker sparring before, and have used concepts similar to what Seagal used in that video. But they require the momentum of a fully commited attack to work. If I seek to alter your trajectory by moving offline and redirecting you (typically 0-90 degrees off the axis of attack is what I have found to be effective), it WILL NOT work if you attack in a half-hearted, non-commited manner.

The attacker's momentum is what makes those moves work, and also what makes them look easy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#170472 - 07/28/05 10:08 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Therein lies the very premise of aikido.

If you are not being attacked (a half-hearted/non-committed attack can hardly be called an attack), then there is no need to respond. To respond (e.g. "atemi") in such a situation makes you the aggressor, which is hardly "self-defense" is it?

In any case, there are ways and means of dealing with a non-committed attack, but that is hardly realistic nor representative of a confrontational situation.

Resistant ukes OTOH are a different thing. IME, it takes some level of skill to feel the resistance and realign accordingly to find the angle and path of least resistance in order to take uke's balance.

However, when you're initially learning, it may be necessary to "go along" until such time each person is comfortable with coming in a little more committed and a little more centered. This provides nage with a little more challenge in terms of finding the correct body alignment and kokyu extension paths.

One of the reasons I don't like to use "resistance training" is because it connotates the idea that one needs to respond to resistance with force. When in actual fact, a simple change in body alignment and angle, and correct kokyu extension thru uke's kuzushi point is usually sufficient to effect the technique.

Therefore, the person that doesn't "go along" is either going to get hurt if they can't do the ukemi, or they're simply not going to get the full benefit of the art. Ukemi is the way to feel the techniques working, correctly and safely. Good ukemi leads to good technique.

FWIW, my $0.02


Edited by eyrie (07/28/05 10:12 AM)

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#170473 - 07/28/05 11:10 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MattJ]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

If one were to start an attack, but then immediately stop the charge, or otherwise lose commitment at the point of entry, the defender no longer has the energy or momentum (whatever you want to call it) to use against the attacker.




That's a great point and is something I often encounter when practising with certain individuals. Good post!
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#170474 - 07/28/05 11:23 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
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Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I used to help out some in this boys home. The boys there had all been on the rough side a little if you know what I mean. I did a drill with five of them attacking me. The first time I stood still and waited. Eventually I was overcome by sheer force, a grappling situation and I went down. So we did it again. This time I went on the attack. I lunged toward individuals, striking kicking, etc. They were more concerned about defendind themselves than attacking as a group. I spun, kicked, punched, etc. I felt like I won that round. This is just more food for thought on this topic. Pretty good experiment, I might add.

Now that brings me to my next point concerning Aikido and multiple opponents. I have always been the type that I wanted to see the techniques work in a non controlled, non compliant drill. So, give me an Aikidoist (highly trained) and some safety gear. Three or four (opponents) and let's try a more dynamic drill. If the Aikidoist and deftly sling us around and keep us off him then I will be more of a believer in Aikido. My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.

As they say on the street now, "can you feel what I'm saying?"

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#170475 - 07/28/05 11:48 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

So, give me an Aikidoist (highly trained) and some safety gear. Three or four (opponents) and let's try a more dynamic drill. If the Aikidoist and deftly sling us around and keep us off him then I will be more of a believer in Aikido. My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.




So are you saying you only consider an art which can successfully deal with 2+ attackers as a valid art of self defence and that any other art can't be a form of self defence? As someone who has only "seen" aikido training rather than someone who has taken time to learn the art practically as well as thoeretically, you seem to have a strong view of the art.

Quote:

My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.



I've been in a class where a newbie visited us for the first time. He had practiced Jujitsu in the past and was interested in learning aikido. We broke up into partners to practice iriminage and I was in the group of three one of whom was the newbie, the other was a fairly unforgiving 6th kyu at the time. The newbie initiated an attack and the 6th kyu executed the technique. I cringed at how the 6th kyu dealt with the newbie who at moments had a look of sheer fear in his eyes. The 6th kyu slammed him into the mat and the newbie reluctantly picked himself up and once again went into attack. He was not cooperative and had no previous experience of aikido and yet the aikidoka controlled him (although quite unforgivingly) and was able to defend against the attack.
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#170476 - 07/28/05 12:14 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
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Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA


So are you saying you only consider an art which can successfully deal with 2+ attackers as a valid art of self defence and that any other art can't be a form of self defence?

No, I'm not saying that all. I'm not sure if you went back and read how this trhead started but it's about dealing with multiple opponents. Someone offered up a theatricle piece staring Steven Seagal deftly dealing with mutiple opponents. However, it appeared to me to be highly cooperatvie and trained Aikidoist.

I'm not sure how much how much of my stuff you've read by I don't think that I would be considered a "newbie" or someone who has just "seen" Aikido. However, I will readily admit that I have not spent a lot of time, "to learn the art practically as well as theoritically."

Also, I understand the concept of not applying the technique full bore in order to protect each other while practicing. My major concern is that someone who always practices with partners that "go along to get along" could develop a very false sense of what Aikido techniques could do in an actual combat situation. I think the more realistc approach mentioned by Samarai would be more beneficial.

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#170477 - 07/28/05 01:33 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
csinca Offline
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Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Quote:

If one were to start an attack, but then immediately stop the charge, or otherwise lose commitment at the point of entry, the defender no longer has the energy or momentum (whatever you want to call it) to use against the attacker.




That's a great point and is something I often encounter when practising with certain individuals. Good post!




As eyrie pointed out, if they stop the attack there is nothing to defend against.

Chris

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#170478 - 07/28/05 01:51 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

I used to help out some in this boys home. The boys there had all been on the rough side a little if you know what I mean. I did a drill with five of them attacking me. The first time I stood still and waited. Eventually I was overcome by sheer force, a grappling situation and I went down. So we did it again. This time I went on the attack. I lunged toward individuals, striking kicking, etc. They were more concerned about defendind themselves than attacking as a group. I spun, kicked, punched, etc. I felt like I won that round. This is just more food for thought on this topic. Pretty good experiment, I might add.

Now that brings me to my next point concerning Aikido and multiple opponents. I have always been the type that I wanted to see the techniques work in a non controlled, non compliant drill. So, give me an Aikidoist (highly trained) and some safety gear. Three or four (opponents) and let's try a more dynamic drill. If the Aikidoist and deftly sling us around and keep us off him then I will be more of a believer in Aikido. My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.

As they say on the street now, "can you feel what I'm saying?"




Intrepidinv1,

I hear ya man! You are raising a valid question and unfortunately getting a conclusive answer is tough. And the question haunts most arts...

For instance, when you were "playing with the boys" where you actually punching and kicking them or were you holding back a bit? If someone had asked one of the boys after the second round about what happened, would any of them have said, "I was gonna tackle him when he did that spinning kick but I didn't want to hurt him"? Was that really a non-controlled, non-compliant experiment?

I understand the pain of the question and I'm walking down the same road. The short answer really is that aikido as an art does include the tools for self defense whether it be one-on-one or against multiple attackers (as much as you can expect to do well against multiples). But the other half of the equation is in the individuals and the training methods. Unfortunately much of the aikido I've experienced tends to be semi-compliant, semi-controlled and very insulated.

The experiment you propose is a good one and it shouldn't be that far fetched. In my opinion an aikidoka that is trying to become a well rounded martial artist should be at least visiting with other styles on occassion.

Two things to keep in mind if you ever get the chance to work that drill...
1. I don't know many people that would fair well with four attackers that are of equal skill. (I'm assuming you didn't want 4 kids out of the beginning tots class for this drill). round out the experiment and put each of the five people in the center for 60 seconds.

2. The often overlooked aikido atemi may well rear it's ugly head. I doubt you'd see the smooth flowing "deftly exectuted" throws that you see in demos (just like a Big Mac doesn't really look like the one in the commercials). This is true of every art I've come across. The first half of a BJJ class is often doing drills, striving to look relaxed and coordinated like the instructor. Then the second half comes around and it's time to roll. And of course it usually looks like two sweaty guys rolling around until somebody taps.

But if you ever find yourself in Southern California, let me know and I'll bring my pads!

Chris

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#170479 - 07/28/05 03:28 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA


second round about what happened, would any of them have said, "I was gonna tackle him when he did that spinning kick but I didn't want to hurt him"? Was that really a non-controlled, non-compliant experiment?



Chris




Chris,

I think you provided a well thought out answer to my delimma. The exercise with the "boys" actually they were all in the 15-18 age range so they weren't quite "tots". To a degree, I guess it was controlled to the point that we didn't want to really hurt each other. However, we did have on pads and we were hitting pretty hard. It was a lot less compliant then most Aikido demonstrations I've seen.

I've engaged in some pretty non compliant, forceful, resisting training with the Fist Gear, Red Man, etc. and this really livens things up a little bit.

Thanks for the comments.

Intrepid

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#170480 - 07/28/05 03:42 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


Now that brings me to my next point concerning Aikido and multiple opponents. I have always been the type that I wanted to see the techniques work in a non controlled, non compliant drill. So, give me an Aikidoist (highly trained) and some safety gear. Three or four (opponents) and let's try a more dynamic drill. If the Aikidoist and deftly sling us around and keep us off him then I will be more of a believer in Aikido. My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.





I actually did this, at the austin bullshido McThrowdown, with a local aikido sensei (I went a round too and so did some wing chun people).

We came to the conclusion that you really can't train for getting jumped. We all eventually got the nelson put on us.
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#170481 - 07/28/05 03:49 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
Ubermint Offline
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

I believe aikido looks at ways in being able to defend against multiple attackers but that's not to say that we can handle ourselves in such a situation comfortably, just that we have an insight of knowing what we might expect. I had a discussion with a practitioner of BJJ who believed that the art in which he practiced outshone every other art. I asked him how, if running wasn't an option he could use his BJJ skills against more than 1 attacker. He couldn't provide an answer. I think this again highlights that every art has its' strengths and weaknesses but in essence they're all useful and can provide much enjoyment!




If you are talking about me in my Hedgehogey incarnation, I was trying to point out the fact that such theoretical discussion is in no way useful, and tends to produce martial paranoia.

No unarmed martial art has an "answer" to getting jumped. Not Aikido. Not BJJ. Not WC. If you find yourself in that situation, there is no training that will help you.
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#170482 - 07/28/05 04:35 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

No unarmed martial art has an "answer" to getting jumped. Not Aikido. Not BJJ. Not WC. If you find yourself in that situation, there is no training that will help you.




Hmmmm...

Not sure how you define "jumped". The inference though is that no type or amount of training will allow you to "successfully" (that is a relative term in self-defense) defend yourself.

In fairness, you might want to explain yourself a little bit.

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#170483 - 07/28/05 04:48 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Master Seagals Aikido is reknown as being some of the most powerful Aiki bodering on Aiki-Jujits, he has activated (some Aikido system don't like striking) and learned Wing Chung & Kali striking and numerous other arts (to include BJJ ground work) into his Aikido. He is also an expert in the use of the combat auto pistol, espeicailly the 1911. He is in my mind a great example of a Modern Warrior.

Most Aikido purest believe he borders on Aiki-jitsu techniques, that he uses too much power in his techniques? he is a big man 6'6". Really, Is there such a thing? I hear that a lot in Tai-chi and Aikido.

Aikido principles with strikes and Aiki-Waza is as effective as any MA on Multiples.
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#170484 - 07/28/05 04:57 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Neko456]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
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Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
From what I read (you say) I wouldn't mind training in this style. I know in some of his movie's he seems to implement a lot of down and dirty striking with his Aikido.

I do have one question about Seagal. Why has he allowed himself to get so out of shape?


Edited by Intrepidinv1 (07/28/05 04:58 PM)

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#170485 - 07/28/05 05:06 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I actually did this, at the austin bullshido McThrowdown, with a local aikido sensei (I went a round too and so did some wing chun people).

We came to the conclusion that you really can't train for getting jumped. We all eventually got the nelson put on us.




Tell me some more about this Bullshido Showdown thing. Where do they hold these events, whose involved, etc. I really like to see demos where the arts are tested to a degree.

Also, I think it's safe to say that no art is going to prepare someone to take on multiple opponents (well trained & conditioned) or allow to defeat a knife opponent (well trained & conditioned.) I'm not saying it can't be done but how many individuals out there can make short work of multiple opponents and armed assailiants. I'm sure that if one of the large highly trained martial artist from the UFC (world class martial artist) could take out a few normal guys in a bar fight but this an exception to the rule.


Edited by Intrepidinv1 (07/28/05 05:08 PM)

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#170486 - 07/28/05 05:24 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Ubermint Offline
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


Tell me some more about this Bullshido Showdown thing. Where do they hold these events, whose involved, etc. I really like to see demos where the arts are tested to a degree.





McThrodowns are events where bullshidoka get together to exchange techniques and test their arts through sparring. Think of a dog brothers "gathering of the pack". There are probably still some videos on the austin mcthrowdown thread, search for them on bullshido.net.

Quote:


Also, I think it's safe to say that no art is going to prepare someone to take on multiple opponents (well trained & conditioned) or allow to defeat a knife opponent (well trained & conditioned.) I'm not saying it can't be done but how many individuals out there can make short work of multiple opponents and armed assailiants. I'm sure that if one of the large highly trained martial artist from the UFC (world class martial artist) could take out a few normal guys in a bar fight but this an exception to the rule.




I am in complete agreement. I would suggest to anyone who claims such an ability that they ask themselves, in all honesty, why they think they can do this better than the best fighters in the world (proffesional MMAists).
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#170487 - 07/28/05 05:33 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: KiDoHae]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


Hmmmm...

Not sure how you define "jumped".




I use that term because it is more immediate and impactive. "Multiple attackers" sounds too close to RBSD jargon.

Quote:


The inference though is that no type or amount of training will allow you to "successfully" (that is a relative term in self-defense) defend yourself.

In fairness, you might want to explain yourself a little bit.




That is exactly what I am saying. I am not saying it is impossible to defend yourself here, just that it is very unlikely and not something you can train for.
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#170488 - 07/28/05 08:13 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
KiDoHae Offline
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Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

I use that term because it is more immediate and impactive. "Multiple attackers" sounds too close to RBSD jargon.




Then perhaps you mean jumped implies "without warning"(?). In the context of this thread you mean being attacked without warning by more than one person (?).

Multiple attackers means multiple atttackers - more than one. They may be standing there or coming at you in group, etc. Difficult, surely. Impossible, perhaps, perhaps not. In this situation you at least have the opportunity to size people up, look for avenues of escape, take a breath and do some quick mental preparations.

I might suggest that if you are jumped without warning that is, in and of itself, in a self-defense situation more of an issue than the number of people doing it. Being caught off gaurd by one person is just as bad as four. The fact that ther might be 3 or 4 can only make it worse.

Can you train to repsond to that? Actually to a degree you can. LEOs and military do it all the time. It is mostly done with a relatively limited number of tactics that are trained to be done instinctively. Often times the purpose is to achieve a quick escape and to give you some distance between you and your attacker(s). That is not a "fight", that is a survival defense.

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#170489 - 07/28/05 10:00 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Leave for a few hours to catch some zzz's and OMG wow! what a flurry of activity!

Quote:

Intrepidinv1:
My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.





There's a BIG difference between learning mode, practice mode, training mode AND demonstration mode. There is an even BIGGER difference between a supposedly uncontrolled and uncompliant "drill" vs a full-on adrenaline pumping survival situation.

It all depends on how badly you want to get hurt. Coz believe me, if you can't take the ukemi, you won't feel a thing - from the neck down.

Here's a quote from Stephen Gerona on the AikidoJournal blogs (http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=824):

Quote:

...most, if not all, of the Aikido techniques have been modified specifically for the safety of the practitioners during training? Taken from a more combative standpoint, (With foundations and influence from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu) safe ukemi is very difficult or impossible to perform. Kondo sensei makes this point very clear in his training instructions in the Ikkajo series of DRA. I make the reference to Aikijujutsu because Kondo sensei has opined that Aikido IS Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and vice versa. The only real difference (I think) is in philosophy and ideology. It is not uncommon for instructors and practitioners of various martial disciplines to make modifications in training curriculums for the safety of the students and/or to reduce the frequency of injuries.

Minor variation or adjustment in nage waza can cause serious injury to an opponent. But the intention of a practitioner to purposefully create injury in his opponent could not truly be called an “Aikido technique”, for this is not the goal of aikido. Nonetheless, the opportunity is always available if one so desires.





This is equally true of ANY martial art, particularly internal martial arts, where the movements are not quite so overt, compared to an overt defensive system, for example karate. Even with a seemingly overt system like karate, devastatingly simple but highly effective self-defense techniques are hidden (in plain view) inside the various kata. What is not overt is the subtle changes in hand positions and movements that makes it useless (i.e. for demonstration) or honest-to-God self defense techniques.

It seems to me that people who critique aikido's "effectiveness" either haven't trained in it long enough, or haven't made the mental leap, or have problems reconciling the paradoxical nature of the spiritual philosophy. Quite often it's those that haven't even trained in it, that are quick to make judgements, based on their limited (and usually biased) perspectives.

OK, if Steven Seagal is not a good example, how about one of the old man himself? I can't get to the site now, but http://yoav.8m.com had a few clips of old footage of the old man doing multiple attacker randori.

Everyone wants to be able to do what the old man can be seen doing. What most don't realise is that it takes half a lifetime to get to that level. This is the result of training every day, every waking moment, living and breathing aikido. Most people are part time martial artists. Few ever practice moving in new ways other than what is practiced in the dojo.

BTW, one McThrowdown with ONE aikido "sensei" is a sweeping generalization. Whilst it may sadly be true and generally indicative across the board, it is still a sweeping generalization.


Edited by eyrie (07/28/05 10:01 PM)

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#170490 - 07/28/05 11:39 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ubermint,

There's a big difference between self-defense and "fighting". They are not the same thing. Aikido is not a "fighting" paradigm.

I point you to Victor Smith's excellent post regarding aikido, it's similarities with karate and the general differences between fighting and self-defense. Note, the humour is very dry, so you'll have to read between the lines.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...9/#Post15770022

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#170491 - 07/29/05 12:01 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Intrepid,

It sounds to me like you are looking at aikido the way I was two years ago!

It's getting to be my mantra but aikido really does have the tools. The art is complete. However, I do not believe that the majority of the training methods allow students to become truly proficient in the way that you are seeking.

Chris

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#170492 - 07/29/05 12:05 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Ubermint,

There's a big difference between self-defense and "fighting". They are not the same thing. Aikido is not a "fighting" paradigm.
Quote:



This really gets to the heart of so many threads on so many forums. I'm starting to think that if you can really understand this, then you are close to understanding aikido

The truly ironic thing is it I didn't clue into this until I took a "leave of absence" from aikido and started crosstraining!

Chris

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#170493 - 07/29/05 12:36 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


This really gets to the heart of so many threads on so many forums. I'm starting to think that if you can really understand this, then you are close to understanding aikido

The truly ironic thing is it I didn't clue into this until I took a "leave of absence" from aikido and started crosstraining!





I think the problem is people see what they want to see. And when they don't see it (their way), it must therefore be wrong. It would be unthinkable to convince them to change their POV. The fact is, that for them to see it in it's true light, they must change their perspective.

It's kinda like painting a picture. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, and you have to step back to take in the overall balance and symmetry. Or to look from the outside in. Or to look sideways in order to gauge the depth. Cross-training tends to have that effect because it constitutes a paradigm shift and forces introspection on your part.

You know what the truly ironic thing is? It's always been there in front of you (hidden in plain view!), just that you couldn't see the forest for the trees.

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#170494 - 07/29/05 12:53 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Oh it was there but I wasn't looking for it. Unfortunately I don't think that many aikidoka understand what they do and don't have in their art.

Chris

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#170495 - 07/29/05 03:00 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

I don't think that I would be considered a "newbie" or someone who has just "seen" Aikido.




Sorry, you put the following quote before so I assumed you hadn't actually taken a class in aikido.
Quote:

My heartburn comes from the fact that all the Aikido practice and demonstrations I've seen involve highly cooperative and trained Aikidoist.




Quote:

My major concern is that someone who always practices with partners that "go along to get along" could develop a very false sense of what Aikido techniques could do in an actual combat situation. I think the more realistc approach mentioned by Samarai would be more beneficial.




We've made that mistake once which resulted in a 2nd kyu having his shoulder dislocated quite badly which needed to be pinned. He hasn't returned since and the accident happened about 18 months ago. I believe if we practiced aikido in 'full combat mode', we'd have very many injuries and very few people returning to practice! There are occasions where we have been given the chance to deal with a committed attack in the dojo but as uke takes such a hard fall, it's not something we practice more than twice in any one session.
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#170496 - 07/29/05 04:23 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: KiDoHae]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


Then perhaps you mean jumped implies "without warning"(?).




Not to me.

Quote:


In the context of this thread you mean being attacked without warning by more than one person (?).

Multiple attackers means multiple atttackers - more than one.




It's also a little cheezy, wouldn't you say?

Quote:


They may be standing there or coming at you in group, etc. Difficult, surely. Impossible, perhaps, perhaps not. In this situation you at least have the opportunity to size people up, look for avenues of escape, take a breath and do some quick mental preparations.




Read again. I was not saying it was impossible, I was saying that there is no martial arts training that can consistently produce results in that direction.

How would you even train for that? Attempting to replicate the situation would only result in...well, in a kind of martial "playing house" or LARPing, where your karate/aikido buddies pretend to be "thugs" and any number of other stereotypes you can come up with.

Honestly, suggest a training method for dealing with this situation, making sure it's alive and testable.
Quote:


I might suggest that if you are jumped without warning that is, in and of itself, in a self-defense situation more of an issue than the number of people doing it. Being caught off gaurd by one person is just as bad as four. The fact that ther might be 3 or 4 can only make it worse.




Sure. Nothing wrong with that. My issue is the deflation of the martial jargon that sorrounds these things and allows martial artists to fool themselves in to thinking that they have a chance of taking on a gang.
Quote:


Can you train to repsond to that? Actually to a degree you can. LEOs and military do it all the time. It is mostly done with a relatively limited number of tactics that are trained to be done instinctively. Often times the purpose is to achieve a quick escape and to give you some distance between you and your attacker(s). That is not a "fight", that is a survival defense.




Yes, it's not any kind of a fight. Rather, it's an assault. It's not an "overwhelming numbers situation" or a "survival scenario" or any other such jargon. It is you, in all probability, getting seriously injurered or worse. No martial art can save you from an attack that is a surprise by it's very nature.
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#170497 - 07/29/05 04:26 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Deleted. Inflammatory.


Edited by eyrie (07/30/05 08:44 AM)
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#170498 - 07/29/05 04:42 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


There's a BIG difference between learning mode, practice mode, training mode AND demonstration mode. There is an even BIGGER difference between a supposedly uncontrolled and uncompliant "drill" vs a full-on adrenaline pumping survival situation.




That doesn't change the fact (not opinion) that working full out with a nonresisting partner is the best way to train for an actual fight (call it whatever you want, as soon as you throw a punch or lay your hands on the guy, you are fighting).
Quote:


It all depends on how badly you want to get hurt. Coz believe me, if you can't take the ukemi, you won't feel a thing - from the neck down.





Awfully conveinent that the only way one can actually test out your art's effectiveness is to know the breakfalling techniques of your art.

Because, youknow, we're aikidoka, and we have an obligation to not let MMA nutriders get hurt due to uncontrolled wristlocks.

It's most certainly not because we've convinced ourselves that we live in a parralel universe where doing an elaborate combination of ballroom dancing and gymnastics is actual useful training and fear that such a view might be inconsistent with reality.


Quote:


This is equally true of ANY martial art, particularly internal martial arts, where the movements are not quite so overt, compared to an overt defensive system, for example karate. Even with a seemingly overt system like karate, devastatingly simple but highly effective self-defense techniques are hidden (in plain view) inside the various kata. What is not overt is the subtle changes in hand positions and movements that makes it useless (i.e. for demonstration) or honest-to-God self defense techniques.





Honey, i'm tired tonight. Can we do the bunkai debate another time?

Quote:


It seems to me that people who critique aikido's "effectiveness" either haven't trained in it long enough, or haven't made the mental leap, or have problems reconciling the paradoxical nature of the spiritual philosophy. Quite often it's those that haven't even trained in it, that are quick to make judgements, based on their limited (and usually biased) perspectives.




Levelling an accusation of bias on anyone who criticizes your art is classic misderection and evasion.

In other words, it's verbal Aikido.

Which I guess means that the fallacy above is hidden within the movements of Bassai Dai or something.
Quote:


BTW, one McThrowdown with ONE aikido "sensei" is a sweeping generalization. Whilst it may sadly be true and generally indicative across the board, it is still a sweeping generalization.




Well...what can you offer that's equivalent?
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Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170499 - 07/29/05 05:12 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/mainpic03.jpg[/image]

Quote:

[url=www.straightblastgym.com]"



And that says what exactly? It looks like summer camp for GI wannabes going for an excuse to were army gear and camourflage.

[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/isr01.jpg[/image]
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Chanters

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#170500 - 07/29/05 06:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
samurai117 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 43
Ubermint makes alot of good points. Alot of Aikidoka have blinders on. If you don't want to do practical technique thats fine, but lose your illusions about them. I am an Aikidoka, and I am also a cop. So my focus is primarly on function/practaity. So when I teach some Kokyu nage techniques for example I preface it, saying you would never use this if actually attacked but this throw helps develop timing and spacing ect... Then we will go on to a varation that is practical.

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#170501 - 07/29/05 06:49 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ubermint,

Your posts are getting quite tiresome. Have you got anything constructive to contribute? Or do you just enjoy baiting aikidoka?

I don't have to justify anything to you. You are absolutely right. We need to train full out against a "nonresisting partner" (your words... maybe you meant "resisting partner"?) to best prepare for a real fight. Said "nonresisting" partner should not do ukemi, and delete ballroom dancing and gymnastics from the training syllabus.

Anything else we need to do to make aikido more palatable to you MMA nutriders? Maybe we should include groundfighting and rename it to MMA/BJJ while we're at it too?

What can I offer that's equivalent? Nah, you need to do better than that...

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#170502 - 07/29/05 07:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: samurai117]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I think in some cases you are right with regards to aikidoka believing the art is the be all and end all but is the same with every other art.

I don't think snippets of aikido should be used to train police or other law enforcement organisations, it takes time, and continued practice to ensure the techniques are of a high standard. The japanese riot police train in Yoshinkan aikido solidly for one year before qualifying for such a role.

Ask me to do osoto gari from judo and I can't execute it at all that very well but I have had a few lessons and been shown how to do the technique. Just because I can almost do it and wouldn't feel comfortable executing that technique in a real situation doesn't mean that it wouldn't work... The same applies to every technique in every art. To say you wouldn't do this or that technique isn't to say that the technique isn't effective, it just means you haven't grasped it yet. I wouldn't try sankyo in a real situation because I think it's a difficult technique FOR ME, but my opinion may change as I gain more experience and with more practice.

Samurai117, what MA do you practice and how long and to what level is your aikido at? Don't take this question the wrong way I am genuinely interested. I do believe what you say about exploring variations within a technique is beneficial in training but you need to fully understand the essence or roots of the technique and feel comfortable with it before trying to add or change bits...
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#170503 - 07/29/05 01:15 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Ubermint aka Hedgehogey (on bullshido.net) hates traditional/internal martial arts with a great passion. I've seen him bash Daito-Ryu aikijujutsu and made unfunny jokes about Baguazhang. It's to be expected, eyrie.

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#170504 - 07/29/05 01:37 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Oh and Ubermint doesn't understand that multiple person randori is a way to test your techniques under pressure. Plus it's supposed to help you develop your awareness (of your surroundings), which is limited and caused by tunnel vision that a fight duel creates. That is what makes aikido different from RBSD, which, I believe, entertains fight 'solutions' to these kinds of unfavorable situations.


Edited by WarriorOfLuv (07/29/05 01:47 PM)

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#170505 - 07/29/05 01:48 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: samurai117]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Ubermint makes alot of good points. Alot of Aikidoka have blinders on. If you don't want to do practical technique thats fine, but lose your illusions about them. I am an Aikidoka, and I am also a cop. So my focus is primarly on function/practaity. So when I teach some Kokyu nage techniques for example I preface it, saying you would never use this if actually attacked but this throw helps develop timing and spacing ect... Then we will go on to a varation that is practical.




I think I might be in the middle on this one. I like Samarai's approach the best. I too am in law enforcement and I try to be practical in my approach to the martial arts, training, etc. This debate is very lively and I believe everyone has the right to their own opinion. From all that I've seen the people who do the best in combat situations seem to be those who have trained in a competitive non compliant mode to wit; boxers, kickboxers, muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestlers, etc. The common denominator is that all these involve the regular practice against non compliant, resistive opponents. Now, as I have said, I am intriqued by Aikido, I think the ability to redirect, sense of balance (yours and the opponents), evading techniques, rapid reactions to the opponents center of balance, etc. all are fascinating to me. However, I think where the Aikidoist may fall short is the more aggressive approach to training. I think by incorporating a good dose of striking (atemi) and realistic training then the Aikidoist should bring their art up to combat levels. One of my Senseis from Aikido class told me point blank, if you want a more combat effect aikido then maybe you should look elsewhere. I heard her tell a prospective student she really didn't care that much about self defense. I can respect that, she doesn't take aikido for that purpose. However, if someone wants their aikido to combat effective then I think the approach that Samarai has mentioned would be beneficial. He's the type of Aikidoist that I would like to train with.

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#170506 - 07/29/05 01:55 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
You know what, you should be taking Yoseikan Budo, Minori Mochizuki's interpretation of aikido, karate, and judo.

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#170507 - 07/29/05 04:33 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

From all that I've seen the people who do the best in combat situations seem to be those who have trained in a competitive non compliant mode to wit; boxers, kickboxers, muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestlers, etc. The common denominator is that all these involve the regular practice against non compliant, resistive opponents.




Intrepid,

No disagreement with what you wrote and I can also get on board with what Samurai is saying. One thing to keep in mind is that every style you listed is designed for sport. A boxers intent is to get into a ring, stand-in and knock the other guy out (or out point him but still "trade punches"). BJJ has a very strong sport component to it. Same with Muay Thai and obviously I think we can all agree that wrestling has a bit of a "sport" flavor to it.

When you say "the people who you've seen do the best in combat situations" do you mean combat situations or are you really talking about sport?

Now in no way shape or form am I saying these aren't all fine MAs, I think its a damn fine list actually and I think they are all effective (heck I'm cross training in BJJ because I need to get a ground game). And I will never pull the "too deadly to compete" because... well I don't need to go there.

The difference is that nobody starts aikido for sport/competition. In fact you probably have a higher percentage of people getting into Aikdio for non-combat/non-sport reasons that most other arts.

Aikidoka are not training for the next fight/tournament, therefore their training methods are different. With different training methods will come different results.

As I've said before, I'm a fan of the art but not of the training methods which leaves me in a bit of a pickle but I'll deal with it.

Chris

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#170508 - 07/29/05 06:06 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
With the exception of Tomiki-ryu (Shodokan) and Yoseikan, aikido is a non-competitive martial activity. It has been documented that the very idea of competition was repulsive to O'Sensei, because he did not believe that was in accordance with his philosophy of what "budo" is. But then everyone's definition of what "budo" means tends to vary greatly.

From a LE point of view, traditional aikido, as it is taught in most schools is unsuitable for DT use without modification. That being said, most traditional martial arts (as they are taught) are generally unsuited for DT use, without some modification. Fletch1 made some very pointed and relevant observations in the Security and Law Enforcement forum regarding Aikido and Law Enforcement. Let's not cloud this discussion with another one that is dealing with that very issue.

From a SD point of view, aikido, if trained correctly, can provide the average person with basic skills and ability to disable and disengage from the average attacker. Aikido is NOT a sport/MMA paradigm even though the strategies and tactics may have been derived from battlefield arts. The idea that Aikido could somehow be "modified" for combat (i.e. to be used in a fight ring) runs counter to the spiritual philosophy that is aikido. So to use the word "aggressive" in the same sentence as aikido in the context of training would be to debase the art to the level of base violence.

In any case, atemi is an integral part of the art, despite the fact that most schools do not train this way, but there are other ways in which the aikido-ka seeks to resolve conflict without resorting to such base level responses.

Aikido is like a mirror. Uke and nage is like a mirror image. Uke needs to be able to attack, resist or comply according to nage's abilities. The importance of the role of uke in aikido cannot be understated. The role of nage is the easiest, since they essentially get to work on posture, ma-ai, ki/kokyu extension, timing and flow etc.

Unfortunately, most people take the view that they want to learn how to do the fancy throws, but not how to receive the throw. Others simply take the dive because they think that is expected of them. Yet others take the view that aikido techniques are simply techniques to be practiced in a certain "kata-like" manner. Either way, it cheats nage of the "feeling", the experience that is "aiki" and the necessary practice.

So most aikido is destined to wallow in mediocrity, as they get stuck in this vicious cycle of "playing" at aikido in "beginner" mode, rather than pushing the limits of their ki and kokyu abilities.

And so it goes, that not everyone views aikido in such light. Some (like your current Sensei) may choose not to practice that aspect of the art. I don't see that as being less valid, as I know that I could still "blend in" with such a school and still get something out of it in terms of practice. After all, mental training is just as important as physical training.

But that's just MHO....

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#170509 - 07/30/05 04:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Deleted. Reason: Off topic and inflammatory.


Edited by eyrie (07/30/05 05:00 AM)
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#170510 - 07/30/05 04:26 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Deleted. Argumentative.


Edited by eyrie (07/30/05 05:01 AM)
_________________________
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#170511 - 07/30/05 04:30 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/mainpic03.jpg[/image]

I'd jump like a dork too if a guy I coached just won a $100,000 UFC contract.

Quote:

[url=www.straightblastgym.com]"



And that says what exactly? It looks like summer camp for GI wannabes going for an excuse to were army gear and camourflage.

[image]http://www.straightblastgym.com/images/isr01.jpg[/image]




Those...are actual grunts. SBG is very much AGAINST the RBSD pretend soldier phenomenom, "spec ops" training, SCARS, etc.

I believe they offer a specialty program specifically to the military.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170512 - 07/30/05 09:10 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

Read again. I was not saying it was impossible, I was saying that there is no martial arts training that can consistently produce results in that direction.

How would you even train for that? Attempting to replicate the situation would only result in...well, in a kind of martial "playing house" or LARPing, where your karate/aikido buddies pretend to be "thugs" and any number of other stereotypes you can come up with.

Honestly, suggest a training method for dealing with this situation, making sure it's alive and testable.




You seem to have the "alive", "resisting opponent", "testable" jargon down pretty well yourself. On occassion, someone who appears to have just learned this comes along and makes it all sound like some great revelation in training. Not hardly.

As far as a training method for dealing with mulitple opponents you are selling yourself short. The premise of producing "replicable" results in every situation, while it is obviously the most desired way of doing it, suggests that if you can not do it that way - don't bother. The flaw with that is that is that it ignores the more subtle and very valuable lessons acquired in other types training that are done for different reasons.

Over the course of 16 or 17 years of training I have trained in systems and with partners that ranged from modest resistance to fully resisting. Personally, I have sought out the opportunity to spar/fight multiple opponents on a regular basis - usually 2, sometimes more. The mix has always varied in age, gender, height, strength, speed and most importantly skill. Far from being "replicable", each session presented its own unique dynamic and offered its own lessons. In fact, as a training tool that is closer to "real life" than what you seem to suggest. In spite of your beleif that is "playing house" there are concrete lessons concerning speed, timing, movement and evasion techniques. Not only do these not promote the "illusion" of invincibilty, quite to the contrary they bring home your very limitations in this sitaution and serve as a reality check to the student who might mistakenly think otherwise.

For its part aikido is one of the few arts that offers it's devotees techniques and principles to attempt to deal with mulitple opponents. Constantly moving through, around and between attackers while attempting to use their own momentum against them (while looking for any opportunity to escape) is as good a strategy as anything else I've come across.


Quote:

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. My issue is the deflation of the martial jargon that sorrounds these things and allows martial artists to fool themselves in to thinking that they have a chance of taking on a gang.





While you are looking to "deflate" the MA jargon you might want to deflate some of your own and take the time to really understand what it is you seem to take issue with.
Respectfully asking questions and thoughtfully challenging peoples ideas is much more contructive than what you have done in any of your various incarnations on the forums. You might actually learn something for yourself in the process.

As far as martial artists "fooling" themselves about their skills the only ones that I have come across with that type of attitude are either immature teenagers, people who are relativey new to arts and not settled in to it yet, those who have been poorly instructed or any combination of the above.

I have a fairly large number of freinds who practice traditional MAs. To a person they are thoughtful, respectful and keenly aware of their own abilites and limitations. They would find the suggestion that they would stand up to group of thugs like in Hollywood movie most amusing.

From what I can see, the only one who seems to be the victim of stereotyping here appears to be you.

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#170513 - 07/30/05 10:00 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Is there a text book or video on this version?

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#170514 - 07/30/05 10:29 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Quote:

From all that I've seen the people who do the best in combat situations seem to be those who have trained in a competitive non compliant mode to wit; boxers, kickboxers, muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestlers, etc. The common denominator is that all these involve the regular practice against non compliant, resistive opponents.






When you say "the people who you've seen do the best in combat situations" do you mean combat situations or are you really talking about sport?






Chris




Chris,

I have several thoghts based on your well presented comments. I understand that there is a difference between combat and sport. Of course we all would agree that there are no rules on the street. An acquaintance of mine, whom I practiced martial arts with and ended up working with as a bouncer is a pretty good fighter. He got into a street fight (non work related) and had the other guy in a bjj type choke (face to face.) The guy ended up biting him in the meaty part between the pec and the shoulder and he still has a nasty scar to this day. He also became very bloody from his head rubbing against the asphalt (unlike a wrestling mat.)

I could go in a lot of directions here as each competitive sport my present a liablity if applied in the street mode. Boxer's don't kick, bjj don't eye gouge, bite, etc., wrestlers turn their back on the opponent, etc. I'm sure we could go on and on here but here's my point.

The competitive sports I mentioned more closely resemble a real street fight then non compliant, non resistant type training. When you are struggling, pulling, pushing, fighting for position, defending against real blows, hitting with some authority, escaping from holds, etc. etc. your body is learning to some degree the very skills that would be necessary in a real fight.

Now, in my opinion we really don't have a conflict unless there is opposing views. In other words, my former Sensei readily admitted that the Aikido they practiced was not combat effective. She did not care about that and did not argue the point, it simply did not matter to her. No conflict there. However, if someone who never test their martial art against resisting non compliant opponents makes claims about how deadly or how effective their particular martial art is then how can they back up this claim without testing it.

If I claim that I can defeat multiple opponents with my martial art then I should be able to fair well in a controlled drill with resistance against multiple opponents. How many people say that bjj is not a practical or effective art? Why not, because we have seen it proven over and over in the UFC and other MMA type matches. How can you argue with that? Now one could argue that bjj is not the best art against multiple opponents because you get tied up with one person in a choke or arm bar. Okay I'm rambling so I'll stop for now. Thanks.

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#170515 - 07/30/05 01:37 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Chris,

Sorry that I almost overlooked this. First rate post!

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#170516 - 07/30/05 03:13 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

Deleted. Argumentative.




Anytime you are debating, there is going to be some degree of arguement.
Don't go the MAP route.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170517 - 07/30/05 06:07 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yes, but not HOW you are phrasing your "argument".
Personal snipes designed to inflame aren't logical arguments.

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#170518 - 07/30/05 07:12 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Intrepidinv1,

I know you directed this at Chris, so apologies to all for jumping in.

Quote:

Boxer's don't kick, bjj don't eye gouge, bite, etc., wrestlers turn their back on the opponent, etc. I'm sure we could go on and on here but here's my point.

The competitive sports I mentioned more closely resemble a real street fight then non compliant, non resistant type training.





Whilst it may appear to do so at some rudimentary level, the fact remains that these sports are bound by certain rules, which constrain the tactics and, to a broader extent, engender certain tactics for dealing with the opponent in the ring.

So, comparing a rule-based (even NHB has rules!) ring sport to a no-rules street fight is moot. E.g. If I put a BJJer in the ring with a MT kickboxer, and said kickboxer was not allowed to kick below the belt (thereby taking away a core tactic), would BJJ really "win" if MT was disqualified for kicking below belt, even though said kick disabled the BJJer by breaking his leg such that he couldn't continue the fight anyway?

Quote:


When you are struggling, pulling, pushing, fighting for position, defending against real blows, hitting with some authority, escaping from holds, etc. etc. your body is learning to some degree the very skills that would be necessary in a real fight.





I think that is the whole point of why aikido is practiced in the manner it is. The whole premise of aikido is contradictory to fighting, and certainly, fighting in such manner. I would suggest that the fundamental flaw in a lot of aikido is the lack of good ukes who can provide such levels of realistic resistance for nage to learn.

After all, who wants to learn how to be locked and thrown, and possibly hurt as a result? It's hard enough trying to get students to actually punch thru someone properly like they're going to take nage's head off, and yet have enough control to pull the technique should nage freeze or botch the technique.

The sad reality is, in a win/lose paradigm, nobody learns anything other than "I win. You lose"... until such time I "lose" and someone else "wins". Who really wins or loses in the end?

Quote:


Now, in my opinion we really don't have a conflict unless there is opposing views.




Therein lies the fundamental premise of "aiki". If you are in "harmony" with your adversary, where is the conflict?

Quote:

However, if someone who never test their martial art against resisting non compliant opponents makes claims about how deadly or how effective their particular martial art is then how can they back up this claim without testing it.





Let's ignore the claims of "deadly and effective" and address the real issue here: testing one's art for "effectiveness".

Will a couple of deaths and serious injuries (yours or someone else's) be proof enough? Who is ready to step up to the plate and is prepared to kill or be killed, in order to prove their art is the more effective?

What if you had a bad day? Is the art ineffective or you were just ineffective on the day?

I don't want to sidetrack this thread into a "how to test the effectiveness of the martial art if you don't train in a certain manner". Other threads in this forum have discussed this issue ad nauseum. Feel free to browse thru the other threads dealing with this dilemma, or start a new one specifically addressing this.

Let's try and keep this thread on "(ways of/principles and strategies of) dealing with multiple attackers". Thanks.

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#170519 - 07/30/05 07:46 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Intrepid,

I think you and I are on the same page and I agree with your overall assessments of the different styles. If I could choose, I would much rather get jumped in a dark alley buy a 5 year aikdio veteran than a 5 year boxer. I've got 12 years of aikido experience and I routinely get worked by BJJ blue belts in my BJJ class (one of them is literally two thirds my size!)

But the point I should have emphasized is this....

(Using western boxing for simplicity but it applies to the other previously mentioned arts)

Aside from boxers not kicking, I think we can agree that boxers have very good hand-striking skills. On an individual basis there is going to be a wide variety of skills (which is an entire separate post on this same subject) but on the whole let's agree that boxers can punch fairly well. I think we could also agree that the training methods that boxers use includes a lot of hard contact sparring in addition to drills and conditioning. So what you have is an athlete that is in good condition, can hit with power, balance and in combinations. He (or she) can use their tools to set up and create openings. They also get used to getting punched as well as blocking punches and slipping punches... Okay this is all very good (and making me wish I had taken up boxing 15 years ago!) but...

The final application of these skills is to get into a ring and stand in with someone else that has a similar skillset and fire away, there aren't going to be a whole lot of big surprises. Running away is not an option. Keeping distance and staying relaxed and away from danger is not an option. The application of "boxing" is to fight within a ruleset in a ring.

Now I get into it in the street with a boxer... assuming he has some skills there is no way, no how I want to try to out punch him. I probably would not rely on kicks other than to keep him off balance and away. A decent boxer could probably chase me down (though I do run and given a good adrenaline dump I can scoot!). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would do whatever I could to avoid being in that ruleset that he is comfortable in. I'm not going to try to punch him as that is what he's used to and better than me at. I'm not going to stay close and I'm not going to keep circling in a 20 x 20 area (how big is a boxing ring?). I'm going to stay out of his punching range, I'll use leg kicks to keep him off balance and if he gets too close I'll try to work a push kick. Or I'll try to one single-leg takedown that I know and see if he crosstrains in grappling. I'll be a bugger for him to chase down and knock out. And that's what I need is for him chasing me because now he's out of his game and coming into mine.

The key is that I don't need to stand in and fight him. Whether I knock him out or not, or even if I punch him is of no consequence to me as long as I can walk away when its done (and not die of internal bleeding in my sleep). The more tools I have, the more options I have and in my opinion, the better my chances are. As an art, aikido has a lot of these tools and I could argue that it has all of what I outlined. But there aren't many aikido dojos that I've been to that practice leg kicks!

I hope this doesn't just muddy the waters

Chris

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#170520 - 07/30/05 07:47 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Oops, this is supposed to be multiple attackers so please pretend I wrote "two boxers" in my previous post

Chris

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#170521 - 07/30/05 08:25 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Chris has highlighted a very pertinent point and that is one of strategy and tactics. Each martial art is designed according to a set of specific strategies for dealing with an attacker in a specific manner.

Often the strategies and tactics used to deal with such attacks is counter to how the attacker would normally operate. This is a fundamental premise for the conduct of war (c/f The Art of War).

The same principle can be extrapolated to a scenario with a trained fighter (or at least someone with a modicum of training). The idea is not to play their game, and certainly not by their rules.

The reason a ring sport is an inappropriate comparison to a street scenario is that the ring is an artificial construct, bound by certain rules of conduct. The rules add to or remove any tactical advantages that each contestant may have. How that can be equated with the stark reality of a street scenario is beyond me.

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#170522 - 07/30/05 11:03 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Chris,

I do think we are on the same page here. I spent a little time in a boxing gym but not enough. I was taking judo while I was in high school and was asked to wrestle for the school but I didn't. I think I made a mistake on that because wrestling is one of the forms of combat that I have a huge amount of respect for.

I think that we both believe that a well trained, cross trained fighter is probably the best prepared for the street. Box a grappler and grapple with a boxer. The more tools you have in your tool box the better your chances are. I incorporate Aikido into my training. Actually, I respect all martial arts.

Well I guess we've been around the block on this one. My bottom line is this; physical conditioning is a very important aspect of training, learn skills from striking and grappling arts, test your skills in the safest and most realistic method as possible, develop your fighting spirit and will to win.

I have been reading a novel called, "Musashi" and I wondered why they had so many deadly duels back then but I believe now more than then the reputation of a school or style was dependent on the ability of their students to fight and win. I think now we can talk about our arts and our skills to a degree and fortunately we don't fight to the death to prove our styles. However, when a style or fighter does well in a competition such as the UFC now it means the ability to attract students, sell books, dvd's, videos's, etc.

Right now I guess I really don't follow one particular style so I really don't have a dog in this fight. I practice and train the way I feel is best for me and I expect others do as well and I guess that is all that really matters.

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#170523 - 07/31/05 01:19 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Mushashi is a great book, I've read it twice and will probably take it on vacation with me this year to read again!

As for crosstraining, right now I'm in my third year of Krav Maga and in my first year of BJJ, and I see myself trying to incorporate them into MY aikido. But obviously I see the value in crosstraining.

Good luck with your training!

Chris

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#170524 - 07/31/05 01:36 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


The same principle can be extrapolated to a scenario with a trained fighter (or at least someone with a modicum of training). The idea is not to play their game, and certainly not by their rules.




Even monkeys fall out of trees. If you don't have an athletic base at each range, tree falls out of YOU!
Quote:


The reason a ring sport is an inappropriate comparison to a street scenario is that the ring is an artificial construct, bound by certain rules of conduct. The rules add to or remove any tactical advantages that each contestant may have. How that can be equated with the stark reality of a street scenario is beyond me.




How familiar are you with the concept of a "delivery system"?
The reason combat sports are good benchlines for the testing of technique are twofold:

1: They are actually testable. When somebody wins a sportfight, it's verifiable. Streetfighting claims are not. Any form of complete bullshido can be found when "streetfights" are mentioned. They go hand in hand. Oftentimes you will see ridiculous claims like "survivor of thousands of streetfights" in ads for RBSD systems. How can you tell if this person is telling the truth? It's impossible to verify, therefore you must disregard his claim.
Sportfighting is provable.

2: Fould tactics make less of a difference than is commonly believed. The important thing is to develop an athletic delivery system at each range (standup, clinch and ground), rather than memorize techniques. This is corroborated by footage of challenge matches between nonsport fighters and sport fighters in which such tactics were allowed (the gracie in action tapes are a good place to start for this).
This entails training athletically. One way of testing your training is to enter a sportfight.
This testability validates a particurlar technique at a particular range. We know slipping, bobbing and weaving are effective punch defenses because they are used all the time by world class athletes who are trying to knock each other out.
The same can't be said for "Traditional" punch defenses.
The athletic delivery system developed through sportsfighting is a base onto which all kinds of foul tactics can be added on to, but the fundamental physical movements remain the same, both for throwing a jab and flicking the eye, hip throwing your partner and hip throwing a man on his head.
If you don't have an athletic delivery system...you can't fight.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170525 - 07/31/05 02:07 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: KiDoHae]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


You seem to have the "alive", "resisting opponent", "testable" jargon down pretty well yourself. On occassion, someone who appears to have just learned this comes along and makes it all sound like some great revelation in training. Not hardly.




Herein is contained a more articulate version of the "I WAS TRAINING WHEN YOU WERE IN DIAPERS" "arguement".

Quote:


As far as a training method for dealing with mulitple opponents you are selling yourself short. The premise of producing "replicable" results in every situation, while it is obviously the most desired way of doing it, suggests that if you can not do it that way - don't bother. The flaw with that is that is that it ignores the more subtle and very valuable lessons acquired in other types training that are done for different reasons.




Such as? What are you learning if it's not consistently usable? What "valuable lessons" related to combat are derived from a non-combative context?

Quote:


Over the course of 16 or 17 years of training I have trained in systems and with partners that ranged from modest resistance to fully resisting.




Such as?

Quote:


Personally, I have sought out the opportunity to spar/fight multiple opponents on a regular basis - usually 2, sometimes more. The mix has always varied in age, gender, height, strength, speed and most importantly skill.




Now we're getting somewhere. Perhaps you can describe a typical sparring session?

Quote:


Far from being "replicable", each session presented its own unique dynamic and offered its own lessons. In fact, as a training tool that is closer to "real life" than what you seem to suggest.




Yes, every situation is unique, but at each range there are recognizable techniques that are used over and over again in the course of competition. Both Rickson and myself use armbars, though we could not be farther apart in ability. Every boxer uses the eight punches that are truly effective. The actual dynamics of the fight are constantly changing, but these techniques are always useful. Though the individual will use his own "style" of fighting (guardwork or pinning? stick and move or slug it out?) the actual techniques will remain the same: Armbar is done with your heels to your butt, throwing a cross means putting your hips and shoulders behind the punch, etc.

Can you say the same for "multiple attacker" training?

Quote:


In spite of your beleif that is "playing house" there are concrete lessons concerning speed, timing, movement and evasion techniques. Not only do these not promote the "illusion" of invincibilty, quite to the contrary they bring home your very limitations in this sitaution and serve as a reality check to the student who might mistakenly think otherwise.




Please note: What I was reffering to here was the RBSD (and increasingly common in MA) style of "scenario" training where various hired toadies in trashcan suits attempt to simulate a variety of attackers in the most hamfisted, stereotypical fashion possible.

Quote:


For its part aikido is one of the few arts that offers it's devotees techniques and principles to attempt to deal with mulitple opponents. Constantly moving through, around and between attackers while attempting to use their own momentum against them (while looking for any opportunity to escape) is as good a strategy as anything else I've come across.




Now here's the big question: What works in this situation? How do you spar it? How much contact is involved?

I sincerely doubt that techniques that don't work on a resisting SINGLE opponent suddenly start working with friends. In fact, I'm guessing it would look more like a runningback weaving through opposing players, rather than anything we think of when we hear "multiple opponents".


Quote:


While you are looking to "deflate" the MA jargon you might want to deflate some of your own and take the time to really understand what it is you seem to take issue with.
Respectfully asking questions and thoughtfully challenging peoples ideas is much more contructive than what you have done in any of your various incarnations on the forums. You might actually learn something for yourself in the process.





Yes, well you know what? Screw being respectful all the time. If something is bullshido, I will call it such. If I am wrong, i'll apologize, but don't expect any YES SENSEI anytime soon
Quote:


As far as martial artists "fooling" themselves about their skills the only ones that I have come across with that type of attitude are either immature teenagers, people who are relativey new to arts and not settled in to it yet, those who have been poorly instructed or any combination of the above.




Perhaps you are not viewing martial arts and artists from an outsider's perspective (that of the untrained person). Martial arts is a nerdy subculture, much like anime or fantasy, and being in that subculture, you get a continuing reinforcement from other members of your own particular worldview (in this case, one where it is possible to take on the crips and win). This is fine when it's getting together to share something you're passionate about (I love anime, and love to talk about it), but in a context of self defense, it can be very dangerous. MAists need continual feedback and criticism from those who are not immersed in this same subculture, and continual reality checks through...getting their asses kicked (something I actively seek out almost every training session).

Quote:


I have a fairly large number of freinds who practice traditional MAs. To a person they are thoughtful, respectful and keenly aware of their own abilites and limitations. They would find the suggestion that they would stand up to group of thugs like in Hollywood movie most amusing.




Really? I have met some in the ARR ELL, and many on the DUBYDUBYADUBYA who make much more fantastic claims regularly. Again, page through an issue of black belt with jim wagner on the cover. If you can't see the invincibility complex, you're not looking very hard.

From what I can see, the only one who seems to be the victim of stereotyping here appears to be you.


_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170526 - 07/31/05 02:08 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Other than what I've described about Yoseikan, I generally lack other information about the style. A google will assist you on information about dvds and books more than my limited knowledge will.

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#170527 - 07/31/05 02:11 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

Yes, but not HOW you are phrasing your "argument".
Personal snipes designed to inflame aren't logical arguments.




Well I guess we'll never be able to debate that, since you ERASED IT FROM TIME.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170528 - 07/31/05 02:16 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Yeah actually, I want to know what Uber wrote. He's written some garble garble on bullshido and I just wanna know if the edited nonsense he wrote here is actually intelligent or is another demonstration of his schizophrenic e-persona.

================
No, it was a snipe at you. But that doesn't excuse your comments about him either. So keep it on topic or I'll be only too happy to delete it too.


Edited by eyrie (07/31/05 03:33 AM)

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#170529 - 07/31/05 02:43 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Ubermint,

From what little I know of SBG, it's a great concept and a great training method. I don't remember where you are but are you training directly under Matt Thornton?

I don't think anyone would argue that the SBG "aliveness" concept is a bit different than the typical training methods you'll see in aikido. Right or wrong, good or bad; down hold your breath for that to change.

This particular thread is about defending against multiple attackers and I think the reality is that if there is any skill among your many attackers, things don't look good regardless of your style. As I'm sure you know, the first thing any BJJ detractor is going to say is "BJJ sucks against multiple attackers" which I can't really comment on at this point in my very young BJJ career.

I'm not trying to downplay the value of conditioning and a more alive training method but most of the styles that train in testable sporting events have a slightly different focus than aikido. To put it bluntly, the intent of most styles is to kick someones ass. The intent of aikido should be to not get your own ass kicked. Whether this is enough of a distinction for you or anyone else to accept, well that's a personal decision and I expect it won't satisfy you.

That's cool, it sounds like you have found your way through SBG and there's nothing wrong with that.

Chris

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#170530 - 07/31/05 05:14 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


How familiar are you with the concept of a "delivery system"?





Not in the way you are using it.

Quote:


The reason combat sports are good benchlines for the testing of technique are twofold:

1: They are actually testable. When somebody wins a sportfight, it's verifiable....Sportfighting is provable.





Sportfighting against multiple opponents? I'm inclined to simply delete this post as off-topic...

Quote:


2...This entails training athletically. One way of testing your training is to enter a sportfight.





If one is so inclined. But you ranting on and attempting to bait people into entering these things does not engender people to want to enter these things. Don't you think? There are ways of asking nicely. This is not one of them.

Quote:


This testability validates a particurlar technique at a particular range. We know slipping, bobbing and weaving are effective punch defenses because they are used all the time by world class athletes who are trying to knock each other out.
The same can't be said for "Traditional" punch defenses.
The athletic delivery system developed through sportsfighting is a base onto which all kinds of foul tactics can be added on to, but the fundamental physical movements remain the same, both for throwing a jab and flicking the eye, hip throwing your partner and hip throwing a man on his head.





Again, all you are doing is hijacking the thread to push your MMA sportfighting agenda to show off the superiority of MMA sportfighting in an arena bound by your rules.

Let's make it simple. MMA sportfighting wins. MMA sportfighting is the most superior martial art. There is no need for any validity testing. Aikido doesn't work. However, we aikido-ka are content to ballroom dance and do fancy gymnastics and pretend we do a martial art. Because tomorrow, we get up refreshed, painfree, full of life, shower, shave, kiss the kids goodbye and go to our exciting day job, before we go for more aikido dancing.

Quote:


If you don't have an athletic delivery system...you can't fight.




Like I said, I can't fight. I may be able to defend myself when the time comes, but I sure as hell can't fight my way out of a wet paperbag if my life depended on it.

You train and test your skill how YOU want. We don't have to train and test ourselves in the same way to pretend we know what we're doing. After all, swapping one delusion for another isn't addressing the deeper psychosomatic issue is it?

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#170531 - 07/31/05 05:19 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

Ubermint,

From what little I know of SBG, it's a great concept and a great training method. I don't remember where you are but are you training directly under Matt Thornton?




No, i'm under Relson, I just find their summaries and outlines extremely useful in debate.

Quote:


I don't think anyone would argue that the SBG "aliveness" concept is a bit different than the typical training methods you'll see in aikido. Right or wrong, good or bad; down hold your breath for that to change.




Maybe not. But I hold out hope that there are TMA instructors who are alivecising their arts, like Kano aliveicised JJJ.
Quote:


This particular thread is about defending against multiple attackers and I think the reality is that if there is any skill among your many attackers, things don't look good regardless of your style.




Even unskilled, you're damn likely to have the nelson put on you.

Quote:


As I'm sure you know, the first thing any BJJ detractor is going to say is "BJJ sucks against multiple attackers" which I can't really comment on at this point in my very young BJJ career.




I respond to that by using my opponent's own force against him by telling him that whatever it is he does sucks against a single attacker.

Quote:


I'm not trying to downplay the value of conditioning and a more alive training method but most of the styles that train in testable sporting events have a slightly different focus than aikido. To put it bluntly, the intent of most styles is to kick someones ass. The intent of aikido should be to not get your own ass kicked. Whether this is enough of a distinction for you or anyone else to accept, well that's a personal decision and I expect it won't satisfy you.




You're right, it doesn't, especially with all the mention of devestating atemi.

The problem again is testability. How do you know you[/n], not a dead japanese guy, can pull this off.

Maybe you decide to have one of your students start attacking you full out with boxing gloves and a helmet. Then you decide you'd improve faster if your students had training in striking. Soon your students are all training this way in pairs, one practicing evasion and defense and the other practicing (however reluctantly) how to hit a moving opponent and suddenly OMG WE ARE STUCK IN THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AGAIN.

If the whole concept of aikido is antithetical to realistic testing with an agressive attacker then yes, Aikido sucks*. I'm holding out hope that this is not true.






*watch these two words be the only ones anyone pays attention to
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170532 - 07/31/05 06:32 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I hate to dash your hopes, but you are spot on regarding lack of striking abilities (or even grappling abilities, or lack of ability to take ukemi properly) of most aikido. I agree, stylized attacks, weak grabs and fancy ukemi gives aikido a bad name. But to generalize this across the board, even though you probably wouldn't be too far off the mark, it is lumping all aikido into the same bad apple cart.

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#170533 - 07/31/05 07:14 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Mushashi is a great book, I've read it twice and will probably take it on vacation with me this year to read again!

Man, I don't know if we're reading the same version but I've been working on it for about three months now.

(I haven't got this quote thing down so I'm in the middle of your quote here.) Although I find it interesting I don't know if I could read it again.

As for crosstraining, right now I'm in my third year of Krav Maga and in my first year of BJJ, and I see myself trying to incorporate them into MY aikido. But obviously I see the value in crosstraining.


Chris




I respect your approach to Aikido and the martial arts. Obviously you have spent a lot of time studying both mentally and physically. I think the fact that you take other styles such as Krav Maga and incorporate it into your Aikido training is a good thing. Aikido seems to be more of an intellectual type of art that requires intense thought and practice. I cannot compete with you guys on the level of disecting the techniques move by subtle move. I'm not there far into it. However, I do understand the concept of locking out, etc. that you have described.

It is imperative to understand the points of balance and breaking down the opponent. Knowing how to manipulate the wrist, elbows and shoulders seem to be the key facets of Aikido.

I'm not arguing which martial art is the best, if I seem to be then I humbly apologize. I still believe a well rounded approach is best.

There is an article in the latest edition of Black Belt that discusses what lessons MMA have taught martial artist about combat. I think any serious martial artist that cares about the self defense aspects of the martial arts should consider what MMA has to teach us.

Chris, I apologize if I missed this somewhere but are you an Aikido instructor? If so and it was logistically possible I would train under your tutelage. I say that based on your answers and approach to Aikido.

After I take a few more months to rehabilitate myself on this broken leg then I'm going to research what Aikido dojo's are available in my again. I may end up back at the one I was at even though they do not profess to be a combat oriented school. I have some friends to practice MMA with so I can maintain that as well as I wrack my brain to understand Aikido better.

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#170534 - 07/31/05 10:18 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Great attitude man. If you want YOUR aikido to be combat effective, you can make it so. Obviously, it is a MARTIAL art, so naturally, it MUST be effective. However, as a beginner aikidoka, you should be concerned with how you move, aiki-wise. Techniques (moving into a realm of jujutsu) are great to learn but the power is generated from the principles that underly those techniques (i.e., aiki). If your current instructor can teach these principles well, then maybe it'd be good to stick with her.

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#170535 - 07/31/05 07:54 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
AttorneyJohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 14
Loc: Houston Texas
It's sort of a safety issue, for everyone involved. It's REALLY easy to hurt somebody that you have in a moving wristlock, especially if you are also spinning away from another's attack.

So, depending on rank, it speeds up, and gets interesting when more than one come at you at once. The thing you watched was probably a semi-staged demonstration, and there would be little less fun for the people putting it on than to have one of their number go home with a broken arm or dislocated shoulder, or God forbid, a cracked skull from a bad fall, just to impress some onlookers.

So, typically, we try to keep the hard, ugly, fast stuff away from the watching eyes of the non-informed and uninitiated. But, usually, if you asked a hi8gh ranking group to show something, they might agree. The people attacking would know just how to NOT get hurt, though, which would limit their intensity of attacking. It really is true, the hard the guy swings at an aikido player, the harder they are going to fall if the technique gets executed right. But, the harder the guy getting swung at is going to get hurt if he isn't on top of his game, too. So, you trade off, speed and intensity on one side, safety and the ability to train tomorrow on the other.

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#170536 - 08/01/05 12:13 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:


The problem again is testability. How do you know you[/n], not a dead japanese guy, can pull this off.

Maybe you decide to have one of your students start attacking you full out with boxing gloves and a helmet. Then you decide you'd improve faster if your students had training in striking. Soon your students are all training this way in pairs, one practicing evasion and defense and the other practicing (however reluctantly) how to hit a moving opponent and suddenly OMG WE ARE STUCK IN THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AGAIN.






Ubermint,

Personally I addressed this by visiting a Krav Maga class, sparring with TKD guys including some full contact, and rolling with some BJJ guys. I found that most aikidoka don't spent the time developing the striking skills to be a good test.

Oh,you may notice from someof my posts that I'm crosstraining in Krav Maga and BJJ now!

Chris

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#170537 - 08/01/05 12:16 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Intrepid,

I was teaching a couple classes a week and when the dojo cho couldn't make class. Over the last two years I've focused more on my crosstraining and am not currently teaching anything.

But hey, if you are ever in Southern California let me know and I'd be more than happy to work out with you.

Feel free to email me if you had any specific questions or wanted more details

Chris

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#170538 - 08/01/05 12:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Regarding the testability issue, AttorneyJohn summed it up best.

Moving right along.... principles and strategies for dealing with multiple attackers. Anyone?

So far we've got:
1. Circling to the outside
2. Using the "shield"
3. Creating obstacles (variant of the shield) by throwing uke into the path of another

Anyone care to contribute more?

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#170539 - 08/01/05 05:17 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Okay, I agree with those three and I'll add:

Making a nasty example of the first attacker (was once the victim of a diving roll to my knees in a randori once)

Grabbing a weapon or equalizer

Chris

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#170540 - 08/02/05 12:27 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Making a nasty example of the first attacker (was once the victim of a diving roll to my knees in a randori once)





Presumably that's the purpose when you're using the attacker as the shield and obstacle at the same time. But it sounds like it could be a strategy in it's own right. Not sure. I'm pretty sure we can find an easy mnemonic for it.... I just can't seem to come up with one at the moemnt.

Quote:

Grabbing a weapon or equalizer




Wait a minute! That's not "aikido"!

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#170541 - 08/02/05 01:34 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

opponents? I'm inclined to simply delete this post as off-topic...




Go ahead. Feed my Christ complex.

But I am responding to arguments you made about sportfighting. So if you delete this post, you must delete your own earlier post. Here:

Quote:


The reason a ring sport is an inappropriate comparison to a street scenario is that the ring is an artificial construct, bound by certain rules of conduct. The rules add to or remove any tactical advantages that each contestant may have. How that can be equated with the stark reality of a street scenario is beyond me.





Quote:


If one is so inclined. But you ranting on and attempting to bait people into entering these things does not engender people to want to enter these things. Don't you think? There are ways of asking nicely. This is not one of them.





What, exactly, am I saying that's not "nice"? My statement that without an athletic delivery system, you can't fight, is not an insult or opinion.
It's a fact.
Quote:

Again, all you are doing is hijacking the thread to push your MMA sportfighting agenda to show off the superiority of MMA sportfighting in an arena bound by your rules.




Responding to something YOU brought up.

Quote:

You train and test your skill how YOU want. We don't have to train and test ourselves in the same way to pretend we know what we're doing.




Well then how DO you test yourselves?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170542 - 08/02/05 01:47 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Is there really a need to use that sort of tone?

Our effectiveness is tested in training - the knowledge of whether it is effective or not is implicit. You know (and everyone knows if you botched the technique - whether as uke or nage). It's pretty obvious.

We simply don't have to "test" it in the same way that you do.

Although, I'm sure you guys do it in pretty much the same way.

Here, let me ask you then, how do you test yourself against multiple opponents, in the sportfighting context you're referring to?

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#170543 - 08/02/05 03:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:


Here, let me ask you then, how do you test yourself against multiple opponents, in the sportfighting context you're referring to?




Battle Royale... last man standing ala WWF!



Xwf
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170544 - 08/02/05 05:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Boon,

Welcome to FightingArts. Everyone say hi to Boon - he's a Yoshi-orge.

Ask him about "realistic" training against "resistant ukes"...

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#170545 - 08/02/05 06:28 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Thank you Eyrie for making me feel welcome. For those in the dark wrt Yoshi-Orge, it is a creature that smells bad, where its smell alone can take on multiple opponents... aikido wise or not.

As for realistic training... and resistant ukes, well, we will have plenty of opportunity to answer that aspect.

X wf aka Boon.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170546 - 08/04/05 04:02 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Hi Boon! Welcome to the forum!!
_________________________
Chanters

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#170547 - 08/05/05 03:33 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Hi Boon! Welcome to the forum!!





Thank you very much Chanters. Have we met before say from another aikido forum?

Boon.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170548 - 08/05/05 04:16 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Not that I'm aware of. I think I may have added my two penneth to a UK aikido forum a long while ago!
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Chanters

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#170549 - 07/04/07 04:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Barra Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Australia
steven seagal is a very skilled martial artist and he has become very experienced in Aikido. He can immobilise anyone with a good joint lock or choke. Also wat u see in demos is done at a slower pace. In the event of a real life attack his relflexes and reaction would be very quick so the techniques would work remarkably well

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#170550 - 07/12/07 09:14 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Barra]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've never met Segal Sensei, but as a casual observer, I suppose his Aikido technique was much better before he "blimped up" the way he was in his last several movies. Most of the "tricks" he used in the movies were good Aikido techniques, just done on "sitting ducks", almost in the teaching mode. Dynamically, the same techniques would have been even more damaging if the attackers had actually been charging in.

The dynamic of this thread was "is Aikido effective against multiple attackers?" The answer is still yes, and whether you have "compliant" ukes or "resistant" ones, the measure of the effectiveness of the techniques will be the level of ukemi that is required to survive the techniques.

My senior student used to have a club at one of the local colleges, where I went to teach a class for them. We were doing irimi (entering) techniques, and for randori, I gripped my own gi lapels, and did irimi techniques using only my elbows. They were still effective, and nobody wants to show up a teacher any more than a bunch of pumped-up college kids, but at the end of the class, both his students and my student told me that was the most impressive thing they had encountered in martial arts.

What outsiders don't usually know, is that Aikido is about 70 percent footwork, and that the many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. Guiding one into another, going between and around to put yourself behind them, and gently moving them into each other's way, can keep them trying to dodge each other rather than concentrating on attacking you. I'm sure Eyrie knows what I'm talking about, but newbies and "outsiders" wouldn't. What you do in Aikido isn't always obvious, except in effect... so when you observe somebody being "compliant", they are often bailing out for their lives to keep from getting slammed.

Toyoda Sensei used to tell me to "lead your attacker into a position where it's more advantageous for them to bail out than to crash with (the) plane"... (it was in somewhat broken English, but he was lots of fun, )and a lot of his ukes would be hunting the ground as they were airborne.

Rather than "multiple opponents in Aikido"... I would phrase that as "multiple victims in Aikido"... at least if you're doing it right...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#170551 - 07/12/07 11:24 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The dynamic of this thread was "is Aikido effective against multiple attackers?" The answer is still yes, and whether you have "compliant" ukes or "resistant" ones, the measure of the effectiveness of the techniques will be the level of ukemi that is required to survive the techniques.


I think the distinction needs to be made between dealing with multiple attackers simultaneously or concurrently. If you watch any of the high level aikido practitioners, it is the latter - i.e. "divide and conquer". As soon as you have to deal with more than one attacker at the same time, the odds significantly decrease in your favour.

At a REALLY basic level, ukemi is a form of self-preservation. A group of average a$$holes who are intent on taking you down and using your head like a football is NOT going to think "self-preservation"... besides, there's safety in numbers.

So, ukemi skills aside, in a multiple attacker situation, SOMEONE is going to get hurt - and hopefully it ain't gonna be you. But one needs to be prepared for that eventuality, so you would want to do everything possible to stack the odds in your favour - vis-a-vis....

Quote:

What outsiders don't usually know, is that Aikido is about 70 percent footwork, and that the many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. Guiding one into another, going between and around to put yourself behind them, and gently moving them into each other's way, can keep them trying to dodge each other rather than concentrating on attacking you.


One of my favorite training devices is to put one person in the middle of a ring of attackers. Because most of my students are beginners, I will limit the attacks to say one specific type of attack. Person in the middle is free to respond with any technique (or sometimes I limit it to one specific technique). Sometimes we do this with the defender blindfolded, sometimes I will call out more or more attackers by name. Makes for a very interesting mental and psychological exercise...

If it's a kids class, the game changes slightly... the person in the middle has a strip of cloth (or a short piece of an old belt) stuck in their pants or belt, and the object of the "attackers" would be to snatch it off the kid in the middle. But the gist of the training remains the same.

This sort of training scenario does several things:
1. It creates a "pressure" situation, where people generally have to "let go" of technique and simply "enter and cut", go between or around, circle from the outside, and generally outflank and out maneuver the group. I have yet to see someone outflank the group and run... which in many cases, would be the right thing to do, unless you had a bung leg and couldn't run.
2. It highlights the issues and difficulties of attempting to deal with more than one person at a time. The moment you get stuck "wrestling" for control of one person, you will get overwhelmed by the others.
3. It highlights the importance of footwork, bodywork and positional advantage and of moving between the spaces.
4. It hints at the greater importance of combative strategy and tactics than technical responses.

Of course it doesn't mean that we train against "multiple attackers". Quite the contrary... and the distinction needs to be clear.

I think it needs to be clear that martial arts is about War, and therefore the strategies and tactics of everything we do is in one way or another related to War and the Art of War - even if the theater of operations is different. So, when facing an enemy of superior numbers, the sane thing to do would be engage on strategically and tactically sound principles - which are to your advantage. Anything else would be suicide...


Edited by eyrie (07/12/07 11:48 PM)

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#170552 - 07/13/07 12:13 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

simultaneously or concurrently


Darn... bad choice of words... what I meant was synchronously (at the same time) or asynchronously (not at the same time), i.e. what I meant to imply was really one after the other - like in a single processor multi-tasking system where the illusion of being able to handle multiple tasks at the same time is created, by switching the processor between tasks, very quickly, in a round-robin fashion.

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#170553 - 07/13/07 11:22 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. >>

In the Seitei-gata (Seitei-iai) a well done Shiho-giri is a thing of beauty.


Edited by iaibear (07/13/07 11:32 AM)

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#170554 - 12/21/07 09:11 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Any practioner of any martial art can stage a demo to show anything. Heck, you don't even need to be a martial artist per se. Any capable athlete can, with enough practice, put on a convincing self-defense demo. Demonstration are theater; they have nothing to do with reality. And the reality is if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you are in serious danger, regardless of what art you practice or how expert you are.

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#170555 - 12/22/07 02:37 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Any practioner of any martial art can stage a demo to show anything. Heck, you don't even need to be a martial artist per se. Any capable athlete can, with enough practice, put on a convincing self-defense demo. Demonstration are theater; they have nothing to do with reality. And the reality is if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you are in serious danger, regardless of what art you practice or how expert you are.




That seems logical but I dont think that was the question.
So what is your answer to dealing with multiple attackers
in a real scenario and how would you train it?


Jude

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#170556 - 12/22/07 06:38 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Well, I just don't think there is much you can do when faced with multiple attackers except try to escape. The idea that one can training for such a confrontation strikes reminds me of the duck-and-cover films of the 1950s, where American kids were implicitly told they could survive a nuclear bomb if only they took care to stay under their desks.

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#170557 - 12/23/07 01:41 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I hear that a lot, about it being impossible to take on multiple attackers. And though I agree that running, if possible, is ALWAYS the best answer...I've known and seen several people take on multiple opponents.

All of them, except one, were trained. One was (is) a Thai kickboxer and I watched him take down 4 bouncers at a local bar.

Multiple attackers seems to come down to mindset, will, ability to take shots, and ability to give them, as well as evading (evading here can also mean evading takedown attempts, so knowing how to sprawl might be useful).

The thing is, you're not going to do well against multple opponents who are as good as you, unless your lucky.


Edited by Ames (12/23/07 01:43 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#170558 - 12/23/07 04:35 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Well, I just don't think there is much you can do when faced with multiple attackers except try to escape. The idea that one can training for such a confrontation strikes reminds me of the duck-and-cover films of the 1950s, where American kids were implicitly told they could survive a nuclear bomb if only they took care to stay under their desks.




Except try to escape?
Doesnt where the event is taking place have anything to do with it? A good friend of mine was pushed down stairs then set upon by 4 guys who were garbage in a 1 in 1.(weapons aside) Ok people will say awareness but when there are a lot of people around I should imagine it cant always be used.
Trying to escape is a very broad answer. Ok say a person is
in a street 4 on to 1 has been kicked in the leg so running isnt an option. I didnt realy look at the demo ( was there one) how would you think is the best way to train for that event?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/23/07 04:43 PM)

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#170559 - 12/23/07 05:07 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ames]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I hear that a lot, about it being impossible to take on multiple attackers. And though I agree that running, if possible, is ALWAYS the best answer...I've known and seen several people take on multiple opponents.

All of them, except one, were trained. One was (is) a Thai kickboxer and I watched him take down 4 bouncers at a local bar.

Multiple attackers seems to come down to mindset, will, ability to take shots, and ability to give them, as well as evading (evading here can also mean evading takedown attempts, so knowing how to sprawl might be useful).

The thing is, you're not going to do well against multple opponents who are as good as you, unless your lucky.




Hi

These are just my thoughts from my studies.
I agree and I think it is getting over the adrenalin dump. So realy I am lead to the conclusion that training should be mind training as well as physical training.
Internal and external.

If this form of training includes the use of chi then that has to be a good thing.
From what I read of the founder of Aikido he was very much into the mind side of training as well as the physical.

The thai boxer maybe wasnt aware of or didnt care about the chi aspect. But more than likely he was using the description of chi in that scenario.

Mind set on one thing. No other or very little thoughts for anything else. Fear to a mimimum. The brains full capacity on that given task. Using the part of the mind he can control not the part of the mind he cant control stopping him doing what he did.

From my readings that is what the founder of Aikido was aiming for should a situation determine fight as opposed to leaving or getting out of the situation.

So back to the demo and the original topic. Is the use of multipull attackers meant to be part of the original training from the founder of aikido? I think it was.



Wristtwister spoke of a woman feeling his chi on a I think it was a wrist lock. I didnt understand it fully at first. I am beggining to see what he meant.

Dealing with multipull attackers would need a vast amount of
concentration, physical ability and zero or minimum adrenalin dump or rather the use of adrenalin for fight and/or flight.

Jude

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#170560 - 12/27/07 03:47 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: jude33]
Panzerhaust Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 4
As an aikido practitioner I'm going to say these things and clarify this whole thread.

One thing very many people either forget or don't know is that aikido isn't a total system. Ueshiba Morihei's students were originally already trained martial artists so he did not have to instruct them in many things such as striking and other basic martial arts ideas.

O-Sensei himself said that atemi (striking) is 90% of a fight. This means that aikido is an art of deadly opportunity. You wait for the opportunity to unleash it. This means we must also know how to strike, using whichever system you choose.

O-Sensei also said not all techniques work on all people. This is true of any art. Because of the varied body structures, endurances, and resistances of human beings not every kick, punch, lock, or otherwise will work on everyone. This means that if your nikkajo is not working, change direction, hit your opponent, or use a different technique.

This also means that we should educate ourselves in other martial arts as well. Not MMA style but learning other systems in true martial arts fashion. I myself study Yoshinkan aikido, judo, muay thai, and wingchun.

Most people think of aikido as these pretty joint locks and throws, done with the greatest ease, and looking like magic. But the truth is that real fights are messy. We train to get our technique as perfect as possible so that when we use it in real life, we can use it well. Also in real life you don't have to use aikido techniques like we train with them. In the heat of a real fight they often revert to being jujutsu techniques again: ikkajo - armbreak, nikkajo - wrist break, hijishime - armbreak...and more.

Also many people say that in aikido it seems like uke is being complacent. Well I have news for you, when you're doing techniques which can break peoples arms or hurl them into the ground with great force, they have to know how to fall, and they have to yield to the technique, otherwise you have no one left to practice with and a room full of broken people.

Also for dealing with multiple attackers it is quite effective. People, unless they're trained military, are generally fairly uncoordinated when attacking as a group. It is difficult to understand O-Sensei's saying about viewing the many as the one until you've studied aikido for a while. When people attack you you can keep them in between eachother, throw them into eachother, use fast techniques to drop opponents and other things which would take a while to mention on here. Maybe I'll start a thread on that.

The problem is that many people view aikido isolated, they forget to look at its history. Aikido is not meant to be used by itself but is meant to help you gain internal power, timing, control, and other assets. It is meant to used in conjunction with another art or arts so that you can take advantage of opportunities presented to you.

Panzerhaust

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