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#170463 - 07/27/05 04:24 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, I'll bite... what's a good example?

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#170464 - 07/27/05 11:54 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

OK, I'll bite... what's a good example?




In my opinion, a good example of a four person randori would be one in which there are four attacks and then you have four attackers that are unable or unwilling to get up for another go. Of course that isn't something we are likely to see in a demo and it sure is hard to practice in the dojo. This puts us back to how we train and what allowances we can make to reuse ukes.

I know when my sensei is performing randori, there are numerous occassions where he is in position to end the game for one of the ukes but instead turns and "throws". I've learned to recognise this and try to learn it.

Randori has always been a weak spot for me, partially because I haven't practiced it much, and partially because part of me wants to take out knees and noses when I get outnumbered.

I did however perform what I believe to be an excellent randori a couple years ago. I was visiting a nearby dojo where I knew a good number of the people and towards the end of class we worked some randori. I think it was three people but it may have been four. I was offered the chance to be nage and on the first round... as the ukes came towards me I immediately closed the distance, cut between two of the oncoming ukes, and ran right out the door into the parking lot.

It came off as a joke, we all laughed and I did a more traditional round that went fine. But I realized that unless I'm trying to defend someone else, it makes so much more sense to use Nike-waza then to prove my technique.

Chris

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#170465 - 07/27/05 12:41 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
What is Nike-waza?

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#170466 - 07/27/05 01:00 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Canyon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 42
Ah yes, the famous nike-waza. Also known as Reebok-waza, adidas-waza, and many other similar techniques. (i.e., getting the heck out of there)

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#170467 - 07/27/05 11:03 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Canyon]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
wow hahah i never heard of that one thats good. I didn't get it Nike lol I was reading it like it was japanese. I'll have to use that one sometime.

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#170468 - 07/28/05 01:10 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Meanwhile, back on topic....

What are some of the principles and strategies one would use for dealing with multiple attackers? Assuming of course, escape (i.e. Nike-waza) is not presently an option and you have to do "something" first before you can disengage from the encounter....

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#170469 - 07/28/05 04:30 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I would say a basic strategy would be to not let your self get encircled by your attackers. A lot of times this happens in practice because of space limitations but in a real situation you should work to get outside of the group so you can run away.

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#170470 - 07/28/05 08:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
In the dojo I attend we sometimes practice dealing with more than one attacker which usually consists of 2 ukes attacking tori and the aim being getting in a position to run. One thing that is emphasised is to aim to prevent other attackers by throwing one uke into the others path which allows you to keep good distance. However it is always reiterated that we shouldn't attempt to deal with multiple attackers unless there's no other option. The same is also expressed with just one attacker.

We've done exercises where the higher dan grades are circled by between 4-9 people and anyone can attack at any time. There are a couple where I have tried to enter and attack the dan grade but they keep throwing other people into my path and I can't get to them. It can be really frustrating and uncomfortable if you don't move out of the way quick enough!

I believe aikido looks at ways in being able to defend against multiple attackers but that's not to say that we can handle ourselves in such a situation comfortably, just that we have an insight of knowing what we might expect. I had a discussion with a practitioner of BJJ who believed that the art in which he practiced outshone every other art. I asked him how, if running wasn't an option he could use his BJJ skills against more than 1 attacker. He couldn't provide an answer. I think this again highlights that every art has its' strengths and weaknesses but in essence they're all useful and can provide much enjoyment!
_________________________
Chanters

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#170471 - 07/28/05 09:00 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Intrepidinv1 -

Quote:

You see I want to believe in Aikido but I cannot find anyone that can show me the techniques in a more combat effective manner. In my Aikido class we simply rolled with the technique even though we were not being thrown at all. Every now and then a new person wouldn't go along




Fair question. Now - Aikido folks bear with me, as my Aikido experience is fairly limited. The issue of "people not going along" works both ways.

The attacker that does not "go along" with the defender may also present a problem by not commiting fully to the actual attack. If one were to start an attack, but then immediately stop the charge, or otherwise lose commitment at the point of entry, the defender no longer has the energy or momentum (whatever you want to call it) to use against the attacker.

I have done some multi-attacker sparring before, and have used concepts similar to what Seagal used in that video. But they require the momentum of a fully commited attack to work. If I seek to alter your trajectory by moving offline and redirecting you (typically 0-90 degrees off the axis of attack is what I have found to be effective), it WILL NOT work if you attack in a half-hearted, non-commited manner.

The attacker's momentum is what makes those moves work, and also what makes them look easy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#170472 - 07/28/05 10:08 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Therein lies the very premise of aikido.

If you are not being attacked (a half-hearted/non-committed attack can hardly be called an attack), then there is no need to respond. To respond (e.g. "atemi") in such a situation makes you the aggressor, which is hardly "self-defense" is it?

In any case, there are ways and means of dealing with a non-committed attack, but that is hardly realistic nor representative of a confrontational situation.

Resistant ukes OTOH are a different thing. IME, it takes some level of skill to feel the resistance and realign accordingly to find the angle and path of least resistance in order to take uke's balance.

However, when you're initially learning, it may be necessary to "go along" until such time each person is comfortable with coming in a little more committed and a little more centered. This provides nage with a little more challenge in terms of finding the correct body alignment and kokyu extension paths.

One of the reasons I don't like to use "resistance training" is because it connotates the idea that one needs to respond to resistance with force. When in actual fact, a simple change in body alignment and angle, and correct kokyu extension thru uke's kuzushi point is usually sufficient to effect the technique.

Therefore, the person that doesn't "go along" is either going to get hurt if they can't do the ukemi, or they're simply not going to get the full benefit of the art. Ukemi is the way to feel the techniques working, correctly and safely. Good ukemi leads to good technique.

FWIW, my $0.02


Edited by eyrie (07/28/05 10:12 AM)

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