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#170453 - 07/26/05 09:03 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down




Is it that obvious? Wow! You must be a very high level martial artist to be able to perceive that.

My jujitsu sensei is so subtle it is so hard to see what is happening - until you feel it, and you have no choice but to release your grip and wince in pain.

My aikido sensei can generate tremendous force using his hips and transfer the force thru his hands such that it is imperceptible what he is doing - until you feel the incredible kokyu extnsion going through your body, that you have no choice but to take the ukemi.

Here's an excerpt of a story about the famous taiji master, Chen Fa Ke:

Quote:


On another occasion, a champion Mongolian wrestler challenged him. As the wrestler took hold of Chenís arms, the wrestler just laughed and bowed to Chen. There was no apparent struggle. A few days later, the wrestler visited Chen with many gifts. Chenís students were puzzled by the visit. The wrestler said, ďDidnít your teacher tell you? He could have thrown me any time. I had no balance at all.Ē This was an indication of Chenís high level of skill, humility and good morals; he did not allow the wrestler to lose face in front of his peers.





IMHE, what people see and what they think they see are two different things - until they feel it and then see it again.

So, to the untrained eye, it looks like Seagal is "tapping" people on the shoulders. To the initiated, he is cutting thru their center. Quite different, IMHO.

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#170454 - 07/26/05 09:08 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Good post Chris.

Here's another loaded question:

If you couldn't do the ukemi, what do you think would have happened? i.e. how would you have fared if you didn't do the ukemi (to protect yourself)?

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#170455 - 07/26/05 09:17 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA


My aikido sensei can generate tremendous force using his hips and transfer the force thru his hands such that it is imperceptible what he is doing - until you feel the

I would like to experience this. You see I want to believe in Aikido but I cannot find anyone that can show me the techniques in a more combat effective manner. In my Aikido class we simply rolled with the technique even though we were not being thrown at all. Every now and then a new person wouldn't go along with the program and wouldn't fall. There was this little skinny girl in there and the instructor could not throw her with one of the techniques because she wouldn't play along...all he could say is "we don't have a conflict then" Aikidoist can you help me to have more faith?

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#170456 - 07/26/05 09:29 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
if he has a problem with improvisation, then his aikido is pretty bad and would get destroyed in the streets. the reason why ukes 'crumble' is because the uke DESIRES for the person to get the technique right. Sometimes with oversignify the role of the uke but I think it needs to be addressed more--uke must learn how to 'jam' the technique in order to help the nage develop good kuzushi, using one's center/hips, footwork, etc. If the uke is simply a 'crumbler', then naturally, the nage's technique will crumble. Once a nage develops good body mechanics, you can then do some 'jamming of technique' to facilitate improvisation. This, mind you, is high level aikido and cannot be proficiently accomplished if the nage hasn't developed good basics.

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#170457 - 07/26/05 09:55 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Intrepidinv1,

That's a hard one. You need to find a good teacher. Unfortunately, many people simply "dabble" in this stuff.

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#170458 - 07/26/05 11:25 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I think I can tell the difference between patting on the bank and using extension. So I don't need your untrained eye and "mystical" asian sensei stories to tell me what I"m seeing. now im not sayin all of hsi stuff looked soft but a lot of it looked quesitionable I don't think thats hard to see at all.


Edited by katsuhayai05 (07/26/05 11:28 PM)

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#170459 - 07/26/05 11:45 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm sure you can. It's not hard....

Just out of curiousity, how long have you been doing aikido for and what's your affiliation?

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#170460 - 07/27/05 12:43 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Good post Chris.

Here's another loaded question:

If you couldn't do the ukemi, what do you think would have happened? i.e. how would you have fared if you didn't do the ukemi (to protect yourself)?




If I couldn't take the ukemi I would likely have hit the back of my head on the ground which I think we can all agree would have been bad. As it was, even having taken a decent backfall, I was stunned for a second or so, more than enough time for bad things to begin stacking up on me.

Chris

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#170461 - 07/27/05 12:46 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Canyon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 42
Quote:

but a lot of it looked quesitionable



katsu,
I can definitely see where people can get that. This is especially true near the end when he's just whipping everyone past him (I'm not sure if there's a name for the technique but basically and kukyu throw as they try to grab you with both hands). Here's one thing to consider. If you're an uke charging forward to grab someone's shoulders and at the last second they move one shoulder a hair off the line, you're immediately off balance with a lot of forward momentum. It takes very little effort for nage to throw at that point.

Watch the movie again and notice his subtle movements right before the grabs. He waits until they are commited then begins to set up for it. It helps that his techique is so clean too.

A lot of the higher level instructors I've trained with are just damn near impossible to grab during randori/ki no nagare techniques and that can really leave you off balance with little effort on their side.

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#170462 - 07/27/05 03:44 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Canyon]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I'm not doubting Mr. Seagals ability at all, I just don't think that was a good example for multiple opponent defense. As a demonstration it's fine.

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