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#170543 - 08/02/05 03:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:


Here, let me ask you then, how do you test yourself against multiple opponents, in the sportfighting context you're referring to?




Battle Royale... last man standing ala WWF!



Xwf
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170544 - 08/02/05 05:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Boon,

Welcome to FightingArts. Everyone say hi to Boon - he's a Yoshi-orge.

Ask him about "realistic" training against "resistant ukes"...

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#170545 - 08/02/05 06:28 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Thank you Eyrie for making me feel welcome. For those in the dark wrt Yoshi-Orge, it is a creature that smells bad, where its smell alone can take on multiple opponents... aikido wise or not.

As for realistic training... and resistant ukes, well, we will have plenty of opportunity to answer that aspect.

X wf aka Boon.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170546 - 08/04/05 04:02 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Hi Boon! Welcome to the forum!!
_________________________
Chanters

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#170547 - 08/05/05 03:33 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Chanters]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Hi Boon! Welcome to the forum!!





Thank you very much Chanters. Have we met before say from another aikido forum?

Boon.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#170548 - 08/05/05 04:16 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: xuzen_628]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Not that I'm aware of. I think I may have added my two penneth to a UK aikido forum a long while ago!
_________________________
Chanters

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#170549 - 07/04/07 04:17 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Barra Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Australia
steven seagal is a very skilled martial artist and he has become very experienced in Aikido. He can immobilise anyone with a good joint lock or choke. Also wat u see in demos is done at a slower pace. In the event of a real life attack his relflexes and reaction would be very quick so the techniques would work remarkably well

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#170550 - 07/12/07 09:14 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Barra]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've never met Segal Sensei, but as a casual observer, I suppose his Aikido technique was much better before he "blimped up" the way he was in his last several movies. Most of the "tricks" he used in the movies were good Aikido techniques, just done on "sitting ducks", almost in the teaching mode. Dynamically, the same techniques would have been even more damaging if the attackers had actually been charging in.

The dynamic of this thread was "is Aikido effective against multiple attackers?" The answer is still yes, and whether you have "compliant" ukes or "resistant" ones, the measure of the effectiveness of the techniques will be the level of ukemi that is required to survive the techniques.

My senior student used to have a club at one of the local colleges, where I went to teach a class for them. We were doing irimi (entering) techniques, and for randori, I gripped my own gi lapels, and did irimi techniques using only my elbows. They were still effective, and nobody wants to show up a teacher any more than a bunch of pumped-up college kids, but at the end of the class, both his students and my student told me that was the most impressive thing they had encountered in martial arts.

What outsiders don't usually know, is that Aikido is about 70 percent footwork, and that the many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. Guiding one into another, going between and around to put yourself behind them, and gently moving them into each other's way, can keep them trying to dodge each other rather than concentrating on attacking you. I'm sure Eyrie knows what I'm talking about, but newbies and "outsiders" wouldn't. What you do in Aikido isn't always obvious, except in effect... so when you observe somebody being "compliant", they are often bailing out for their lives to keep from getting slammed.

Toyoda Sensei used to tell me to "lead your attacker into a position where it's more advantageous for them to bail out than to crash with (the) plane"... (it was in somewhat broken English, but he was lots of fun, )and a lot of his ukes would be hunting the ground as they were airborne.

Rather than "multiple opponents in Aikido"... I would phrase that as "multiple victims in Aikido"... at least if you're doing it right...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#170551 - 07/12/07 11:24 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The dynamic of this thread was "is Aikido effective against multiple attackers?" The answer is still yes, and whether you have "compliant" ukes or "resistant" ones, the measure of the effectiveness of the techniques will be the level of ukemi that is required to survive the techniques.


I think the distinction needs to be made between dealing with multiple attackers simultaneously or concurrently. If you watch any of the high level aikido practitioners, it is the latter - i.e. "divide and conquer". As soon as you have to deal with more than one attacker at the same time, the odds significantly decrease in your favour.

At a REALLY basic level, ukemi is a form of self-preservation. A group of average a$$holes who are intent on taking you down and using your head like a football is NOT going to think "self-preservation"... besides, there's safety in numbers.

So, ukemi skills aside, in a multiple attacker situation, SOMEONE is going to get hurt - and hopefully it ain't gonna be you. But one needs to be prepared for that eventuality, so you would want to do everything possible to stack the odds in your favour - vis-a-vis....

Quote:

What outsiders don't usually know, is that Aikido is about 70 percent footwork, and that the many of the techniques of Aikido were designed to help a swordsman escape from a ring of surrounding swordsmen. Guiding one into another, going between and around to put yourself behind them, and gently moving them into each other's way, can keep them trying to dodge each other rather than concentrating on attacking you.


One of my favorite training devices is to put one person in the middle of a ring of attackers. Because most of my students are beginners, I will limit the attacks to say one specific type of attack. Person in the middle is free to respond with any technique (or sometimes I limit it to one specific technique). Sometimes we do this with the defender blindfolded, sometimes I will call out more or more attackers by name. Makes for a very interesting mental and psychological exercise...

If it's a kids class, the game changes slightly... the person in the middle has a strip of cloth (or a short piece of an old belt) stuck in their pants or belt, and the object of the "attackers" would be to snatch it off the kid in the middle. But the gist of the training remains the same.

This sort of training scenario does several things:
1. It creates a "pressure" situation, where people generally have to "let go" of technique and simply "enter and cut", go between or around, circle from the outside, and generally outflank and out maneuver the group. I have yet to see someone outflank the group and run... which in many cases, would be the right thing to do, unless you had a bung leg and couldn't run.
2. It highlights the issues and difficulties of attempting to deal with more than one person at a time. The moment you get stuck "wrestling" for control of one person, you will get overwhelmed by the others.
3. It highlights the importance of footwork, bodywork and positional advantage and of moving between the spaces.
4. It hints at the greater importance of combative strategy and tactics than technical responses.

Of course it doesn't mean that we train against "multiple attackers". Quite the contrary... and the distinction needs to be clear.

I think it needs to be clear that martial arts is about War, and therefore the strategies and tactics of everything we do is in one way or another related to War and the Art of War - even if the theater of operations is different. So, when facing an enemy of superior numbers, the sane thing to do would be engage on strategically and tactically sound principles - which are to your advantage. Anything else would be suicide...


Edited by eyrie (07/12/07 11:48 PM)

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#170552 - 07/13/07 12:13 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

simultaneously or concurrently


Darn... bad choice of words... what I meant was synchronously (at the same time) or asynchronously (not at the same time), i.e. what I meant to imply was really one after the other - like in a single processor multi-tasking system where the illusion of being able to handle multiple tasks at the same time is created, by switching the processor between tasks, very quickly, in a round-robin fashion.

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