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#170533 - 07/31/05 07:14 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Mushashi is a great book, I've read it twice and will probably take it on vacation with me this year to read again!

Man, I don't know if we're reading the same version but I've been working on it for about three months now.

(I haven't got this quote thing down so I'm in the middle of your quote here.) Although I find it interesting I don't know if I could read it again.

As for crosstraining, right now I'm in my third year of Krav Maga and in my first year of BJJ, and I see myself trying to incorporate them into MY aikido. But obviously I see the value in crosstraining.


Chris




I respect your approach to Aikido and the martial arts. Obviously you have spent a lot of time studying both mentally and physically. I think the fact that you take other styles such as Krav Maga and incorporate it into your Aikido training is a good thing. Aikido seems to be more of an intellectual type of art that requires intense thought and practice. I cannot compete with you guys on the level of disecting the techniques move by subtle move. I'm not there far into it. However, I do understand the concept of locking out, etc. that you have described.

It is imperative to understand the points of balance and breaking down the opponent. Knowing how to manipulate the wrist, elbows and shoulders seem to be the key facets of Aikido.

I'm not arguing which martial art is the best, if I seem to be then I humbly apologize. I still believe a well rounded approach is best.

There is an article in the latest edition of Black Belt that discusses what lessons MMA have taught martial artist about combat. I think any serious martial artist that cares about the self defense aspects of the martial arts should consider what MMA has to teach us.

Chris, I apologize if I missed this somewhere but are you an Aikido instructor? If so and it was logistically possible I would train under your tutelage. I say that based on your answers and approach to Aikido.

After I take a few more months to rehabilitate myself on this broken leg then I'm going to research what Aikido dojo's are available in my again. I may end up back at the one I was at even though they do not profess to be a combat oriented school. I have some friends to practice MMA with so I can maintain that as well as I wrack my brain to understand Aikido better.

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#170534 - 07/31/05 10:18 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
Great attitude man. If you want YOUR aikido to be combat effective, you can make it so. Obviously, it is a MARTIAL art, so naturally, it MUST be effective. However, as a beginner aikidoka, you should be concerned with how you move, aiki-wise. Techniques (moving into a realm of jujutsu) are great to learn but the power is generated from the principles that underly those techniques (i.e., aiki). If your current instructor can teach these principles well, then maybe it'd be good to stick with her.

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#170535 - 07/31/05 07:54 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
AttorneyJohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 14
Loc: Houston Texas
It's sort of a safety issue, for everyone involved. It's REALLY easy to hurt somebody that you have in a moving wristlock, especially if you are also spinning away from another's attack.

So, depending on rank, it speeds up, and gets interesting when more than one come at you at once. The thing you watched was probably a semi-staged demonstration, and there would be little less fun for the people putting it on than to have one of their number go home with a broken arm or dislocated shoulder, or God forbid, a cracked skull from a bad fall, just to impress some onlookers.

So, typically, we try to keep the hard, ugly, fast stuff away from the watching eyes of the non-informed and uninitiated. But, usually, if you asked a hi8gh ranking group to show something, they might agree. The people attacking would know just how to NOT get hurt, though, which would limit their intensity of attacking. It really is true, the hard the guy swings at an aikido player, the harder they are going to fall if the technique gets executed right. But, the harder the guy getting swung at is going to get hurt if he isn't on top of his game, too. So, you trade off, speed and intensity on one side, safety and the ability to train tomorrow on the other.

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#170536 - 08/01/05 12:13 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:


The problem again is testability. How do you know you[/n], not a dead japanese guy, can pull this off.

Maybe you decide to have one of your students start attacking you full out with boxing gloves and a helmet. Then you decide you'd improve faster if your students had training in striking. Soon your students are all training this way in pairs, one practicing evasion and defense and the other practicing (however reluctantly) how to hit a moving opponent and suddenly OMG WE ARE STUCK IN THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AGAIN.






Ubermint,

Personally I addressed this by visiting a Krav Maga class, sparring with TKD guys including some full contact, and rolling with some BJJ guys. I found that most aikidoka don't spent the time developing the striking skills to be a good test.

Oh,you may notice from someof my posts that I'm crosstraining in Krav Maga and BJJ now!

Chris

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#170537 - 08/01/05 12:16 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Intrepid,

I was teaching a couple classes a week and when the dojo cho couldn't make class. Over the last two years I've focused more on my crosstraining and am not currently teaching anything.

But hey, if you are ever in Southern California let me know and I'd be more than happy to work out with you.

Feel free to email me if you had any specific questions or wanted more details

Chris

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#170538 - 08/01/05 12:21 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Regarding the testability issue, AttorneyJohn summed it up best.

Moving right along.... principles and strategies for dealing with multiple attackers. Anyone?

So far we've got:
1. Circling to the outside
2. Using the "shield"
3. Creating obstacles (variant of the shield) by throwing uke into the path of another

Anyone care to contribute more?

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#170539 - 08/01/05 05:17 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Okay, I agree with those three and I'll add:

Making a nasty example of the first attacker (was once the victim of a diving roll to my knees in a randori once)

Grabbing a weapon or equalizer

Chris

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#170540 - 08/02/05 12:27 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: csinca]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Making a nasty example of the first attacker (was once the victim of a diving roll to my knees in a randori once)





Presumably that's the purpose when you're using the attacker as the shield and obstacle at the same time. But it sounds like it could be a strategy in it's own right. Not sure. I'm pretty sure we can find an easy mnemonic for it.... I just can't seem to come up with one at the moemnt.

Quote:

Grabbing a weapon or equalizer




Wait a minute! That's not "aikido"!

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#170541 - 08/02/05 01:34 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

opponents? I'm inclined to simply delete this post as off-topic...




Go ahead. Feed my Christ complex.

But I am responding to arguments you made about sportfighting. So if you delete this post, you must delete your own earlier post. Here:

Quote:


The reason a ring sport is an inappropriate comparison to a street scenario is that the ring is an artificial construct, bound by certain rules of conduct. The rules add to or remove any tactical advantages that each contestant may have. How that can be equated with the stark reality of a street scenario is beyond me.





Quote:


If one is so inclined. But you ranting on and attempting to bait people into entering these things does not engender people to want to enter these things. Don't you think? There are ways of asking nicely. This is not one of them.





What, exactly, am I saying that's not "nice"? My statement that without an athletic delivery system, you can't fight, is not an insult or opinion.
It's a fact.
Quote:

Again, all you are doing is hijacking the thread to push your MMA sportfighting agenda to show off the superiority of MMA sportfighting in an arena bound by your rules.




Responding to something YOU brought up.

Quote:

You train and test your skill how YOU want. We don't have to train and test ourselves in the same way to pretend we know what we're doing.




Well then how DO you test yourselves?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#170542 - 08/02/05 01:47 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Is there really a need to use that sort of tone?

Our effectiveness is tested in training - the knowledge of whether it is effective or not is implicit. You know (and everyone knows if you botched the technique - whether as uke or nage). It's pretty obvious.

We simply don't have to "test" it in the same way that you do.

Although, I'm sure you guys do it in pretty much the same way.

Here, let me ask you then, how do you test yourself against multiple opponents, in the sportfighting context you're referring to?

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