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#170443 - 07/23/05 02:20 PM Multiple opponents in Aikido
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello
I was reading the "can aikido be used to take on mutiple attackers?" thread and rember seeing some Aikido demonstrations a while ago. During the demo all the opponents attacked one after another and seemed to have a 1 punch mind set, none of them attacked simutaniously(sorry if the spelling is wrong).
How is this kind of training done from school to school? dose the training vary in intensity by rank or by school? Is being attacked simutaniously an issue?
~MonkeyLegs


Edited by MonkeyLegs (07/23/05 02:30 PM)

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#170444 - 07/25/05 01:21 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
RedRaven Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 6
In My school Aikido can be used to netralize (for lack of a better word) multiple attackers

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#170445 - 07/26/05 01:12 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: RedRaven]
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

In My school Aikido can be used to netralize (for lack of a better word) multiple attackers




Thank you very much for your responce but I was hoping for a little more detail.... When neutralizing multiple opponents are they attacking at the same time? dose it get more intense later in training?

I find it difficult to belive out of all the Aikido threads and people responding to them that no one has an oppinion on these things.
Please dont get me wrong I dont want to start a flame war or anything similar, just a conversation about resistance and intensity during multiple opponent training in Aikido. Im aware no one can go full out while training, but are there scenarios where you have been restrained and have to get out, maybe where 2 or more opponents try to strike you at the same time? dose this differe from school to school? are you set loose to do as you will while playing the team attacking a single person?

~MonkeyLegs

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#170446 - 07/26/05 01:48 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: MonkeyLegs]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
In O'Sensei's dokas (poems of Aikido), there is one which goes something like "treat the one as many, and treat the many as one". The same saying is repeated in Shioda's book "Total Aikido - The Master Course".

In other words, you treat multiple attackers as one unit and one attacker at a time - whether they are all attacking at once or not.

The principles of dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one. Keep moving to the outside of the group (as a unit) and keep extending. Do not worry about technique or whether uke can take ukemi (that's their problem). Just enter and cut. (Like a hot knife thru butter).

Here's an example vid of Steven Seagal doing multiple attacker randori. Note how he's always moving in and cutting.

http://www.aikijujitsu.ca/Seagal.wmv

However, in practice, (so uke doesn't get hurt), practice must be done more consciously and slowly, for ukes that are not able to do the ukemi as well as they should. nage MUST always protect uke in training.

On the street, you simply act as a mirror, reflecting your attackers' intent.


Edited by eyrie (07/26/05 02:00 AM)

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#170447 - 07/26/05 02:09 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
His (seagals) aikido looks really soft I don't think that stuff would actually work.

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#170448 - 07/26/05 05:56 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And what makes you qualified to judge - on "looks" alone?

Chris has taken ukemi from Sensei Seagal. Ask him what he thinks.

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#170449 - 07/26/05 11:07 AM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down

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#170450 - 07/26/05 04:12 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
MonkeyLegs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

In O'Sensei's dokas (poems of Aikido), there is one which goes something like "treat the one as many, and treat the many as one". The same saying is repeated in Shioda's book "Total Aikido - The Master Course".

In other words, you treat multiple attackers as one unit and one attacker at a time - whether they are all attacking at once or not.

The principles of dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one. Keep moving to the outside of the group (as a unit) and keep extending. Do not worry about technique or whether uke can take ukemi (that's their problem). Just enter and cut. (Like a hot knife thru butter).

Here's an example vid of Steven Seagal doing multiple attacker randori. Note how he's always moving in and cutting.

http://www.aikijujitsu.ca/Seagal.wmv

However, in practice, (so uke doesn't get hurt), practice must be done more consciously and slowly, for ukes that are not able to do the ukemi as well as they should. nage MUST always protect uke in training.

On the street, you simply act as a mirror, reflecting your attackers' intent.




That is very inspiring thank you.
Would you think of "dealing with multiple attackers is the same as dealing with one" the same as breaking down a situation? upon encountering verbal abuse from a group of 5 one unit, if 2 attack they become 1 unit, attacks made at the same time are 1 motion from the unit?

~MonkeyLegs

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#170451 - 07/26/05 06:07 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: katsuhayai05]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Quote:

Why would I have to be qualified to tell whether something can work or not. I think it's obvious that if your just tapping people on the shoulders there not going to fall down




This is a very impressive piece of work here but, the uke's are very well trained Aikidoist. They make Seagal look good. I enjoy watching Seagal movies, I have most of them but we cannot allow ourselves as practical martial artist to believe this is real combat, it is not. I would love to believe that a man could train to a level to defeat multiple opponents with that much ease. However, I've been in to many fights, grappling and sparring matches to believe that it was combat looks like. What would happen against untrained opponents. How much of this could he do? Seagal looks very pretty in this, he even fixes his hair one time but people this is not a real fight! I want to believe in Aikido I've even taken lessons in it but this does not cure my doubt of some of the techniques. I will say this Aikido does have moves that work, I've done them on non compliant individuals but I am not a total believer.

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#170452 - 07/26/05 07:53 PM Re: Multiple opponents in Aikido [Re: Intrepidinv1]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Okay, this is a pretty loaded question and there are a lot of different answers on many levels.

In my opinion the art of aikido is probably better suited to dealing with multiple attackers than many other arts. With a concept of flowing, moving and not getting involved with the attacker (or attackers), aikido provides better tools than an art that requires involvement with the attacker (i.e. a series of strikes, powerful or multiple kicks, even a choke requires 3-4 seconds of continuous blood flow restriction where you are tied to that guy...). Remember that it is not within the nature of aikido to actually have to do anything to these guys other than not let them "get you". If your movement is relaxed and efficient and these multiple attackers wear them selves down, lose interest or the landscape changes (the police shows, a busload of your buddies show up...)and you don't get hurt, well then you were successful!

The other half of my opinion on this is that the training methods of most aikido dojos I've visited do not sharpen the tools properly to prepare the aikidoka for that attack. most randori practice that I've seen and done does not allow for what I'll call "realistic" attacks. Nobody diving at you, kicking out your legs or a based combination attack. It's generally an individualistic rush in and attack. The worst is when you are supposed to wait for the nage to turn and see you...

So in summary, the art provides the tools but most practice that I've seen does not sharpen those tools.

Moving on the the Seagal video. Yes I took ukemi from him at a seminar a number of years ago. The man was fast, very fast. I didn't feel him but I did feel the ground suddenly accelerate up and hit me in the back hard enough to take my air for a moment. From my experience, his tools are (or at least were) sharp.

Keep in mind that most of what the public sees is either movies (and we don't need to go there) or demonstrations. It would be foolish to confuse a demonstration with a real fight and I'd have to agree that a real fight wouldn't go down anywhere near what was shown in the video. But then again, is it safe to assume that Seagal Sensei would act the same?

At the same seminar I had the pleasure of doing some jiu-waze (sp?) with Reynosa Sensei and yes we were both playing our roles to a certain extent. I could have attacked much differently and with more intent, but I truly believe that Reynosa Sensei could have changed some of my ukemi from nice rolls and breakfalls to face plants if he changed his intent.

A good demonstration shows the tools in as realistic a light but allows everyone to go home and enjoy the rest of the day.

It's a tough call to make judgements based on demo's, classtime or sparring. Would we judge boxers to be ineffective punchers because they sure do hit each other a lot and sometimes they'll even fight 15 rounds and not knock each other out.

Anyway, those are my thoughts this evening!

Chris

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